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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Focus Discussion - Additional Proposed Changes to Rogues

  1. #76
    Ascendant bitnine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrar View Post
    Nightblade
    • Nightstalker: Now gives bonuses for targets above 30% health (These will not be the same bonus as targets below 30% health)
    • Weapon Flare: Now requires a target selected, awards a combo point
    • Fiery Chains: Increased the number of targets hit, now has a chance to award a combo point for each target hit
    I've got to say, my overall impression of these changes, Nightblade in particular, are very positive. These seem targeted at a particular concern, the singular dominance of sab in AoE builds, and are a good step towards both lessening that as an issue and providing some effectiveness that's good for each of the individual classes.

    If the end result are more viable PvE Nightblade builds out there, that would actually be awesome.

    As far as Rift Disturbance goes, I do wonder about a couple of things: does this mean that a tank now needs to have a valid mob in range targeted to be able to use this skill? Along the same lines, is there a needed target that would stop this from being used against stealthed targets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango View Post
    I think though, we can probably agree that a single proc ability shouldn't be accounting for the largest damage within a fight.
    We can? *cough*Electrified Munitions*cough*
    Last edited by bitnine; 09-23-2011 at 07:55 PM.

  2. #77
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    MM does not have burst yet

    Bladedancer is still not "in your face"

    Sin is fine, leave it the way it is

    Same to NB, buff it or leave it

    Sab for pvp needs some love

    What i propose:
    -Bring H&R back even if just reduces the CD on empowered shot and deadeye and allows Master Archer on the run
    -Reduce the cooldown of Sprint to 1min
    -Unbaiting Steel reduces the cooldown of Flash of Steel by 5s in addition to PTS effect
    -Vivacity increases damage of bladedancer abilities by 10/20%
    -Improved False Blade increases Parry and Dodge by a aditional 4/9%
    -Combat Culmination should give 2/4/6% per combo point
    -Remove from traps "only 1 trap can be placed at a time" and make only 1 trap of each type can be placed at a time
    -Remove cast time of land mines
    I quited Rift, the lack of end game pvp+Gear based game+AoE zerg fest on many WF just kill the way i like pvp. (am p7,5)
    Small Skirmishes all over the place
    Currently am playing SC2 and Team Fotress 2, if you like skill based balanced games, try then out, btw Team Fotress 2 is now FREE!

  3. #78
    Plane Walker Vera's Avatar
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    Would it be possible for Rift Disturbance to not require a target and award a combo point if you have one and it's in range? Again I still like using this ability for instant spawns when there is no time to target things. Anyone with a decent reaction time can tell you that as it stands this is already a really great ability because of the no target requirement.
    This would be perfect. Better yet, give it a 50% chance to grant an additional combo point per enemy hit, or something like that.

    Anyhow. You've said this patch isn't about tanking, so I can assume you're looking at Rift Disturbance from a DPS point of view.

    "Looking at Rift Disturbance from a DPS point of view"

    Heh. You going to increase the attack power bonus applied to Vicious Cleave, too?

    In the spirit of providing genuine feedback, I will say: if you're going to "take a broader look at raid tanking in patch 1.6 (or before)", please DON'T mess with our abilities in the meantime. I know this is on the boundary of being off-topic, but... seriously. Just leave it alone.

    http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2734/65937182q.jpg

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durango View Post
    I think though, we can probably agree that a single proc ability shouldn't be accounting for the largest damage within a fight.

    So, I'm kinda OK with it doing less overall damage. I would almost prefer that sabs did lower single target damage than other classes but still did very high AoE damage.

    Also would be nice if there was a reason to use all the other charges within the Sab had more use. It might be interesting to relegate sab to the primary AoE roll and change some of the other charges like splinter, ember, and caltrop become AoE charges that focus on different number of mobs. So on say 2 mobs ember would deal more damage overall, on 4 mobs, splinter would deal more overall damage, on 6 mobs shrap would deal more damage and above 8 mobs you'd want to use caltrop.

    It just seems to be that sab has all these abilities which basically go unused in 99.99% of gameplay.



    This is the general DD problem which would probably be best off with fixing DD so the bonus isn't as great for charges.
    Deadly dance is the reason sabdancer does well without the "bugged' affect of deadly dance when used on charges, sabdancer would negate into non-raid effective DPS. The aoe components of sabdancer :

    Residual shrapnel
    Charge booster

    Residual is affected by the last charge of DD but charge booster is not. So really are AoE is comprised of Detonate and shrapnel. Sabdancer is the only sab build that used DD, but these "nerfs" do not affect sabdancer. It affects only deep sab builds. Which is what is a bit confusing. as High explosive took a hit. To negate the use of sabdancer AOE the use of deadly dance x5 shrap detonate would have to be changed. In every sab build tested ( and currently being re-test) the use of bombs is still not needed in a rotation and each attempt to add them to a rotation on the PTS have resulted in a heafty DPS cut.

    To make the use of bombs more favorable for a DPS raid rogue, the dmg or abilities of bombs would have to be changed as right now there is no build that uses bombs that performs even half decent. ( parses from PTS to back this)
    Last edited by Raizoken; 09-23-2011 at 08:10 PM.
    "sigil? I have sigil.. 1.5 day no problem"
    im a rogue in No quarter , I raid with a green sigil and im 10/11 in HK.. you can farm loot but cant farm skill

  5. #80
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    I don't think the changes are on test as yet i saw an update.The tooltip was definitely fixed but testing 51 sin
    Impale and finalblow did the same damage .
    But any buffs to Assassin are welcome so thank you.

  6. #81
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    Please do not nerf sab. Playing a ranged saboteur since beta, you do not need to nerf it, but bring other souls up.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrystania View Post
    Please do not nerf sab. Playing a ranged saboteur since beta, you do not need to nerf it, but bring other souls up.
    Completely agree.
    Last edited by Gill; 09-24-2011 at 03:58 AM. Reason: reply to a post that was removed

  8. #83
    Plane Touched Malkieri's Avatar
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    Depending on how these numbers pan out on the PTS these changes have made me a happy Rogue. I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers were not included in the changes becuase they're still being looked at, which is a good thing.

    If these changes translate as PvE DPS Rogues having a viable ranged DPS spec from MM with ST and AoE both being decent AND Sin/NB becoming a viable ST DPS spec aswel as having Sabo available then I really can't ask for anything more from one patch.
    It might actually mean Rogues can DPS as melee or range depending on play-style preference.

    Also, I think Elrar and Trion in general deserve huge props for their thick skin and willingness to make changes like this. No other gaming company I've seen has made changes, been told by their playing community that those changes simple suck or are not enough and then re-evaluate those changes and keep working on improving.

    Impressive stuff.

  9. #84
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    Also there is no current way on PTS to test the current PTS build changes or the listed previewed PTS changes to the nightblade buiild. The talents listed and the talents listed in PTS atm are based on target HP. Unless a target dummy in introduced under a % HP we wont know until someone steps into a raid and parses, and even then it will be so warped due to raid comp gear buffs/debuffs. Is it possible for a GM to cut the HP of a dummy?

    Right now on PTS the best nightblade we were able to produce in terms of DPS was 1470 dps in raid 2 gear( in elras listed build which wont have nightstalker). We cant get to test the +dmg */ HP we can thus at this point only speculate.

    HK bosses have 10 mil HP, so a nightblade would go most of the fight with subpar DPS until under said % for a short amount of time.
    Last edited by Raizoken; 09-23-2011 at 08:20 PM.
    "sigil? I have sigil.. 1.5 day no problem"
    im a rogue in No quarter , I raid with a green sigil and im 10/11 in HK.. you can farm loot but cant farm skill

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malkieri View Post
    Depending on how these numbers pan out on the PTS these changes have made me a happy Rogue. I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers were not included in the changes becuase they're still being looked at, which is a good thing.

    If these changes translate as PvE DPS Rogues having a viable ranged DPS spec from MM with ST and AoE both being decent AND Sin/NB becoming a viable ST DPS spec aswel as having Sabo available then I really can't ask for anything more from one patch.
    It might actually mean Rogues can DPS as melee or range depending on play-style preference.

    Also, I think Elrar and Trion in general deserve huge props for their thick skin and willingness to make changes like this. No other gaming company I've seen has made changes, been told by their playing community that those changes simple suck or are not enough and then re-evaluate those changes and keep working on improving.

    Impressive stuff.
    DPS numbers w/in 5% of Sabdancer but 20% less than warriors is 0 improvement.

  11. #86
    Champion of Telara Elth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrar View Post
    Saboteur
    With the updates to all souls in 1.5, Rogues should no longer feel dependent on Saboteur for AOE damage. Changes to High Explosives and Residual Shrapnel have been discussed previously but we feel now is the time to make them in tandem with the following buffs to other souls. Saboteurs should now achieve competitive single target and AOE damage without using the same rotation for both.
    • High Explosive: Lowered the critical strike damage bonus
    • Residual Shrapnel: Lowered the benefit to Shrapnel Charge. The bonus to Blast Charge has not been changed
    Let me get this straight, in order to make other Rogue souls competitive with Saboteur you intend on reducing Saboteur effectiveness?

    Really guys, you need to find which Warrior DPS build in holding top spot. Don't Nerf it, use it as a benchmark. Then you tweak other souls to that level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrar View Post
    Nightblade
    • Nightstalker: Now gives bonuses for targets above 30% health (These will not be the same bonus as targets below 30% health)
    • Weapon Flare: Now requires a target selected, awards a combo point
    • Fiery Chains: Increased the number of targets hit, now has a chance to award a combo point for each target hit
    Nightstalker and Weapon Flare changes are good. Fiery Chains change is pointless, I concur with others in this thread in that it should be made an AOE Finisher.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrar View Post
    Assassin
    • Impale: Damage slightly increased, should now be more comfortable in a Final Blow/Impale rotation
    • Physical Trauma: Increased the bonus to Final Blow
    Honestly I prefer the old timings of Impale. If you are going to increase it's damage further, increase it's time so you can fit two Final Blow rotations in between.

    Finishers with low timings (like the PTS version of Impale) make it very hard for high latency players as it is more difficult to get a tight rotation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Elrar View Post
    Bladedancer
    • Double Coup: Increased the effectiveness
    • Blade and Soul Parity: Now grants critical strike bonus damage
    • Twin Strike: Now hits additional targets
    • Compound Attack: Now hits additional targets
    Firstly, these are very vague changes. How can we provide feedback on them with such little information?
    Secondly, this still doesn't address current concerns that half the Bladedancer soul tree is wasted on talents that don't work in PvP and aren't needed in PvE. These changes are just going to make Bladedancer better at soloing. Dodge is useless to us, as are abilities that proc from dodge.


    Quote Originally Posted by Elrar View Post
    Marksman
    • Silver Tip Munitions: Is no longer considered a curse, now stacks to 20
    • Fan Out, Crossfire, Lightning Fury: Now hits additional targets
    • Collateral Damage: Now increases all AOE damage for Ranged Weapons, no longer applies its old bonus
    Silver Tip Munitions change sounds good.
    Collateral Damage change sounds okay.
    Fan out, Crossfire, Lightning Fury change sounds okay.

    Still doesn't address the original goal that Marksman are the
    mobile-soul-that-needs-to-be-stationary-to-do-DPS.


    Quote Originally Posted by Elrar View Post
    Ranger
    • Master Huntsman: Blood Raptor now receives more of a bonus from Master Huntsman
    • Rain of Arrows: Cooldown reduced to 6 seconds
    No comment on changes. Lack-lustre at best.
    Would like to see more focus on pet/ranger synergy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrar View Post
    Riftstalker
    • Rift Disturbance: Now requires a target, now awards a combo point
    I don't see how this helps anything.

  12. #87
    Plane Touched Malkieri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petgroup View Post
    DPS numbers w/in 5% of Sabdancer but 20% less than warriors is 0 improvement.
    We havnt seen numbers yet from these latest changes. If MM/NB/Sin become viable and parse on par with, or higher than Sabdancer then I'll be happy.

    I can deal with being 100-300 DPS behind Warrior ST DPS if our specs also allow us to have good AoE. If anything happened to that one Warrior spec, we'd be kings of DPS, if the numbers with these changes stack up.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raizoken View Post
    It would also be really informative for us testers if we knew if STA not proc'ing off of auto attack is working as intended as well as it not procing off of rapid fire shot past the first hit.
    From my testing STA has an ICD of roughly 1 second, most noticeable with Strafe where 4 of the 5 shots proc EM but one doesn't. This is also why RFS only procs 1 EM. And I believe why Fannout et al only proc it on 1 target. AFAICT, all the MM munitions have this 1 second ICD.

    And not that this is a request or wishlist comment but would it not keep the DPS scale intended for the marks tree if STA were 2% at 10 stacks instead of 1% at 20 stacks? Would this not also offer the same DPS output but also allot us to build said stacks at a more target switch raid enviorment friendly state?
    It seems like the intention is to give the MM a sizable DPS boost but not an immediate DPS boost. Which seems reasonable as a way of making certain specs less desirable in certain fights. Some specs are more instantaneous but do less damage, some ramp up but do more damage.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrar View Post
    Hey everyone,

    Thanks again for your continued feedback - below you’ll find the next round of proposed changes for Rogues, these are not yet on PTS. Overall we’d like to increase damage slightly in the backend of a number of trees. For the most part all of the changes below are pure buffs and, as always, are subject to change so please continue to share your thoughts.

    The changes below also don’t include any tanking changes for the Riftstalker however we will be addressing a number of their tanking issues very early in the 1.5 patch cycle i.e. well before 1.6.

    For this discussion we’re going to be focusing on keeping all posts on topic – we ask that you only post in reference to rogues as they are on PTS when taking these changes into account. Discussions that are off topic will be moderated – there are plenty of other threads where you can share those thoughts, thanks for your cooperation!

    Saboteur
    With the updates to all souls in 1.5, Rogues should no longer feel dependent on Saboteur for AOE damage. Changes to High Explosives and Residual Shrapnel have been discussed previously but we feel now is the time to make them in tandem with the following buffs to other souls. Saboteurs should now achieve competitive single target and AOE damage without using the same rotation for both.
    • High Explosive: Lowered the critical strike damage bonus
    • Residual Shrapnel: Lowered the benefit to Shrapnel Charge. The bonus to Blast Charge has not been changed
    Ugh. I don't get why you guys are so hell bent on NERFING the spec. Its fine leave it alone, the problem is that other specs don't measure up, but it looks like with the other changes here, that may not be the case. I can't properly comment until the changes hit the PTS. As some have already mentioned, the nerf to high explosives is a flat nerf to the soul, effect both ST and AOE damage for a class that was already not so great in single target without certain souls.

    I still think Marksman changes did the exact opposite of what you wanted to do. Bring back hit and run.

    Like the Bladedancer changes.
    Last edited by Khelendross; 09-23-2011 at 08:34 PM.
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  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ayu View Post
    Would be nice if fan out would generate combo points same way as trick shot from ranger does. Or atleast hit harder, the AOE capabilities of MM are quite awful. For now it just feels like someones tapping your shoulder when you use Fan out
    edit: I see Rain of arrows CD reduced to 6 seconds, that increases the gap between MM and Ranger even further.



    Typo btw
    I agree with this wholeheartedly. I think MM aoe is terrible. It's almost better just to single target everything. Fan out does horrible damage...

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