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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Focus Discussion - Additional Proposed Changes to Rogues

  1. #196
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    Most of these changes are pretty nice but...

    ...this is how I feel about the Rift Disturbance and Saboteur nerfs:
    http://www.ragemaker.net/images/Stup...iouslyChan.png
    Last edited by Neykho; 09-24-2011 at 01:36 PM.

  2. #197
    Ascendant Vyxagallanxchi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neykho View Post
    Most of these changes are pretty nice but...

    ...this is how I feel about the Rift Disturbance and Saboteur nerfs:
    http://www.ragemaker.net/images/Stup...iouslyChan.png
    Not enough rage in that pic for my thoughts on the sabo nerf.
    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    Think of a 30 meter circle around all ranged dps rogues and mages. Ranged dps can stand in the back line and focus fire targets without worrying about mobility and most forms of cc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zinbik View Post
    Sounds like an excellent plan for your healers to follow as well, as they have an even longer range on their heals.

  3. #198
    Ascendant Mirimon's Avatar
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    was that jackie chan?

  4. #199
    Ascendant charliekelly's Avatar
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    so just to be clear, i thought i read rogues were supposed to be getting a buff?

    our top damage spec now does the same dps single target and less aoe than 1.4, while other specs are hoping to match this specs damage.


    WHY IS THE SABDANCER OF 1.4, THE BENCHMARK OF A ROGUE BUFF IN 1.5?

    explain yourselves or is this a troll?

  5. #200
    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
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    Nightblade could use an aoe finisher but SoD seems to be fine.

    Also appears that DS might be better than the bd aoe finisher unless the number of enemies is upped again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

  6. #201
    Rift Disciple Lorx's Avatar
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    I'm liking the theories you guys put in place at the beginning of 1.5 PTS Elrar. I'm curious on your plans for Bard though, as those have been left out of this round of changes and I don't think that objective has really been completed at all. Also confused on the addition of the new Motif, seems superfluous, especially when one of the major complaints with Bard already is that there are too many motifs up for too short a duration span.
    On Sabo, while the bomb buffs are nice, the major problem for a 44+sab with bombs is still that they take away a GCD. High Explosives/Residual Shrap/Spike DoT's pretty much makes up a high-point sab's DPS, and with 6s on HE's duration there's just enough time to queue up another set of bombs before it wears off. For bombs/traps to really be viable they either need to do more than that GCD is worth in comparison to those DoT's, or for the DoT's to be long enough to have wiggle room. Without either of those being true, both traps/bombs as well as 51sab won't be viable at all.


    On High Explosives & Shrap QQ:
    It crits the entire 6s now instead of first tick. A lower base damage value won't kill it. Saying you do 200 less per tick therefore it was globally nerfed is a statistical impossibility. Somebody with 20% crit and 800AP will feel this is a nerf whereas somebody with 40% crit and 600ap may feel it is a buff, depending on just how much HE was modified. Give your numbers an anchor point, make them into statistics that have value. Otherwise you are not going to be providing information to Trion that they actually need. You'll just be whining.

    Quote Originally Posted by charliekelly View Post
    so just to be clear, i thought i read rogues were supposed to be getting a buff?

    our top damage spec now does the same dps single target and less aoe than 1.4, while other specs are hoping to match this specs damage.


    WHY IS THE SABDANCER OF 1.4, THE BENCHMARK OF A ROGUE BUFF IN 1.5?

    explain yourselves or is this a troll?
    Because they're not balancing the game around how much Sabdancer does in 1.4. That much should have been obvious back in 1.2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyzyx View Post
    Do not nerf saboteur's aoe.

    People are just going to whine and complain in 6 months after we are forced to play the next spec. Just leave it how it is (relatively equal to everything else) so people can choose what they want to do. Forcing people to just play a different spec solves nothing.
    They're not forcing anybody to play any spec. If anything the sab nerf allows for greater freedom without being yelled at by min-max players. provided no new spec comes out on top by so much. And so far no such spec has surfaced.
    Epic Gendo

  7. #202
    Asst. Community Manager Walsingham's Avatar
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    Hi everyone,

    Please keep in mind that we want your play experiences from PTS in this thread only. This thread will be moderated, and any posts that do not include data and actual play experience or suggestions will be removed.

    Thanks!

  8. #203
    Ascendant Vyxagallanxchi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorx View Post
    I'm liking the theories you guys put in place at the beginning of 1.5 PTS Elrar. I'm curious on your plans for Bard though, as those have been left out of this round of changes and I don't think that objective has really been completed at all. Also confused on the addition of the new Motif, seems superfluous, especially when one of the major complaints with Bard already is that there are too many motifs up for too short a duration span.
    On Sabo, while the bomb buffs are nice, the major problem for a 44+sab with bombs is still that they take away a GCD. High Explosives/Residual Shrap/Spike DoT's pretty much makes up a high-point sab's DPS, and with 6s on HE's duration there's just enough time to queue up another set of bombs before it wears off. For bombs/traps to really be viable they either need to do more than that GCD is worth in comparison to those DoT's, or for the DoT's to be long enough to have wiggle room. Without either of those being true, both traps/bombs as well as 51sab won't be viable at all.


    On High Explosives & Shrap QQ:
    It crits the entire 6s now instead of first tick. A lower base damage value won't kill it. Saying you do 200 less per tick therefore it was globally nerfed is a statistical impossibility. Somebody with 20% crit and 800AP will feel this is a nerf whereas somebody with 40% crit and 600ap may feel it is a buff, depending on just how much HE was modified. Give your numbers an anchor point, make them into statistics that have value. Otherwise you are not going to be providing information to Trion that they actually need. You'll just be whining.



    Because they're not balancing the game around how much Sabdancer does in 1.4. That much should have been obvious back in 1.2.



    They're not forcing anybody to play any spec. If anything the sab nerf allows for greater freedom without being yelled at by min-max players. provided no new spec comes out on top by so much. And so far no such spec has surfaced.
    Okay, prior to the nerf of HE, I was criting for it between 1100-1250 depending on spec. Using a 51 sabo spec so that I could see the effect of the contribution from points in sabo, I was getting abouts 1150ish in rank 8 PvP gear. Now, after the change, I crit for about 930ish. Same exact build, same exact weapons and essences (PvP ones). That is roughly 200 damage PER TICK less then it was before the nerfs on the PTS. THAT is what I'm angry about. Nothing changed besides the modifier on HE and it changed considerably. The difference I would assume would be even larger for builds using Magnify Pain in the sin tree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    Think of a 30 meter circle around all ranged dps rogues and mages. Ranged dps can stand in the back line and focus fire targets without worrying about mobility and most forms of cc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zinbik View Post
    Sounds like an excellent plan for your healers to follow as well, as they have an even longer range on their heals.

  9. #204
    RIFT Guide Writer Hokonoso's Avatar
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    new aoe changes are good... except the sab nerf. sab is now bottom of the food chain for aoe dps (minus assassin which has no aoe). nightblade is a good 500dps higher on 3 targets, bladedancer more (btw compound attack is still 100% worthless, you would need to up it's dmg by 30% in order for it to beat deadly dance and twin strike spam), even ranger spamming nothing but rain of arrows beats sab aoe now, that's pretty bad considering im talking 3 targets here and ranger aoe is meant for 11+ targets.
    Useful Rogue guides since I don't want to answer 50 billion questions anymore:
    Marksman, Ranger, Nightblade, Blink'Blade, Asstalker, Assdancer, and finally The Hoko Spec™
    Hoko, teaching noobs the way of rogue pve until 12/20/11.

  10. #205
    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorx View Post
    They're not forcing anybody to play any spec. If anything the sab nerf allows for greater freedom without being yelled at by min-max players. provided no new spec comes out on top by so much. And so far no such spec has surfaced.
    My experience on the pts actively testing specs says otherwise.

    With these changes at least FIVE of the specs elrar posted are equaling sabdancer single target capabilities. With the changes today listed in the OP. Several others as Hoko pointed out now do more aoe than sabdancer.

    Seems like those min-max players will now yell at me if I attempt to play a spec I enjoy and have come to excel at because of this shrapnel nerf.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

  11. #206
    Ascendant charliekelly's Avatar
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    the sab aoe nerf wasnt thought out well enough, when it was changed originally, there was a large scale backlash. so its reverted, then its changed back? can we get some feedback on this? dont just delete posts about it. they are on topic as per the OP.

  12. #207
    RIFT Guide Writer Hokonoso's Avatar
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    more importantly when are we getting our 4pc crystals fixed? right now only mm and nb seems to increase dps...

    ranger one needs much love to be considered a pet class, 60% more dps increases the pet by such a small # that in the over dps spreadsheet it is nonexistent. it should really increase the pet dps by 200% or more to compete with the nb or mm crystal. and if you are going to make the mm crystal make empower shot instant after a deadeye shot, then you should have the ranger one make shadow fire instant after a headshot, it's only fair if comparing apples to apples, .5 sec off is not a noticeable dps gain over a 5min parse.

    bd is useless because 40 and 51bd are useless, deadly dance is not useless but the crystal doesnt effect it at all.. that's design fail right there. 2pc is good

    assassin clips itself... imo just increase final blow dmg, dont make it cast expose weakness...

    saboteur is bad, incriminate is a defensive ability, not an offensive one, don't tie offense to defense, that's silly and design fail... and in this case, the 2pc is 100% useless as still no one uses bombs, make bombs add cps or delete them as no one will ever or has ever used them.

    nb is pure win, mm is pure win, these two crystals are what the other 6 should look like, hell copying and pasting will work imo. sin crystal could mirror nb crystal (final blow does 30% more dmg for 2pc and impale duration increased by 7 seconds for 4pc), oh that sounds OP? well that is 100% identical to what the nb crystal is doing!!!! ranger should be a comparable dps gain as the mm crystal, testing would need to be done but there are many ways to make the pet more useful. bd 4pc should be tied to deadly strike and improve deadly dance, anything else simply doesn't make sense. saboteur 2 and 4pc need to be redone, simply adding dmg to detonate and increasing duration of spike charge and residual shrapnel would suffice (nb crystal anyone?). dots ticking for longer is a good thing in pve, hell if you made them tick long enough you would force us to throw bombs or lose dps!!!
    Last edited by Hokonoso; 09-24-2011 at 09:18 PM.
    Useful Rogue guides since I don't want to answer 50 billion questions anymore:
    Marksman, Ranger, Nightblade, Blink'Blade, Asstalker, Assdancer, and finally The Hoko Spec™
    Hoko, teaching noobs the way of rogue pve until 12/20/11.

  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hokonoso View Post
    bd is useless because 40 and 51bd are useless, deadly dance is not useless but the crystal doesnt effect it at all.. that's design fail right there. 2pc is good
    40 and 51 BD are very competitive now if you have the right gear. And no, making it so that the BD crystal buffs other classes more than BD isn't a reasonable idea. The current BD crystal works great for BD.

  14. #209
    Champion of Telara Elth's Avatar
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    Deadly Dance + Rift Disturbance.
    Deadly Dance +Weapon Flare.

    Those combinations might cause some drama in PvP.

  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elth View Post
    Deadly Dance + Rift Disturbance.
    Deadly Dance +Weapon Flare.

    Those combinations might cause some drama in PvP.
    they dont hit that hard even with deadly dance up, and rift disturbance aoe is long. weapon flare with deadly dance hits as hard as fanout without, just so you are aware of the situation.

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