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Thread: what happened to 1.4: CLERIC Addressing issues with Cleric damage

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    Default what happened to 1.4: CLERIC Addressing issues with Cleric damage

    CLERIC
    Addressing issues with Cleric damage Souls to bring them more in line with the other callings.
    Failed in 1.4 and 1.5 gives cleric DPS a NERF!

    SHAMAN
    * PTS NOTE: Lust for Blood: Now grants a flat 45% chance to deal additional damage on your next Physical hit. Does not scale based on points spent in the Shaman soul.
    Shaman in a raid setting is easily at a 60+% crit rating. So this patch will maybe Buff new level 50 shaman players, but nerf any good raid cleric.

    1.4 didn't even buff cleric DPS. It just made it more versatile. Pre 1.4 you only had one choice as a dps cleric: cookie cutter (drui/sham hybrid). Now you have the choice between druid (scales really bad), shaman or inqui and maybe caba, but only when aoe is involved. This is great and a step in the right direction, but the dps output of all these builds is only very slightly higher than the pre 1.4 cookie cutter and we still are the bottom of any possible dps by a far margin. Not even close to competitive.

    Trion, its really time to fix this as you promised in 1.4.

  2. #2
    Prophet of Telara Venditte's Avatar
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    Easy fix: Add "miens" for DPS specs. Justicar has Leadership, which makes them able to tank. Shaman and Druid should have their own that increases damage done, while reducing healing done. Shaman's could be something like

    "Mien of Air - Increases all physical and air damage done by 30% and an extra 1% for every point spent in the shaman tree after X amount of points. Also reduces threat generated by 50% and reduces the healing of all cleric healing spells by 50%. Only 1 Mien can be active at a time."

    "Mien of the Forest - Increases all physical damage done by 15% and an extra 1% for every point spent in the druid tree after X amount of points. Also reduces threat generated by 25% and reduces the healing of all cleric healing spells by 50%. In addition, your pets gain 20% of your attack power and physical crit. Only 1 Mien can be active at a time." For druids

    "Mien of the Crusader - Increases all spell damage done by 30% and an extra 1% for every point spent in the inquisitor tree after X amount of points. Also reduces threat generated by 50% and reduces the healing of all cleric healing spells by 50%. Only 1 Mien can be active at a time."

    "Mien of Leadership - Increases the Cleric's threat generation by 450% and Endurance by 90%. Decreases all non-physical damage taken by 5%, plus an additional 1% for every point spent in the Justicar soul after 11 points(so 40%ish at 51 points). It also increases the Cleric's Armor by 100%, plus an additional 1% per point spent in the Justicar soul. Reduces all healing done by non-Justicar abilities by 40%. Only 1 Mien can be active at a time." - Obviously they'd remove thorvin's law if they added the magic reduction thing. This would allow them to be on the same level as warriors, tank wise.
    Last edited by Venditte; 09-22-2011 at 11:27 PM.

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    Plane Touched Tomaj's Avatar
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    For shaman, would need to also include water damage. ;)

    Also, something for cabalist.

    That said, only druid would need something unique; Inquisitor, Cabalist and Shaman all have pre-existing buffs that it could be tied into (Armor of Awakening, Lurking Decay, Vengeances). I don't necessarily agree with this particular idea (for a variety of reasons), but a thought.
    Last edited by Tomaj; 09-22-2011 at 11:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Venditte View Post
    Easy fix: Add "miens" for DPS specs. Justicar has Leadership, which makes them able to tank. Shaman and Druid should have their own that increases damage done, while reducing healing done. Shaman's could be something like

    "Mien of Air - Increases all physical and air damage done by 30% and an extra 1% for every point spent in the shaman tree after X amount of points. Also reduces threat generated by 50% and reduces the healing of all cleric healing spells by 50%. Only 1 Mien can be active at a time."

    "Mien of the Forest - Increases all physical damage done by 15% and an extra 1% for every point spent in the druid tree after X amount of points. Also reduces threat generated by 25% and reduces the healing of all cleric healing spells by 50%. In addition, your pets gain 20% of your attack power and physical crit. Only 1 Mien can be active at a time." For druids

    "Mien of the Crusader - Increases all spell damage done by 30% and an extra 1% for every point spent in the inquisitor tree after X amount of points. Also reduces threat generated by 50% and reduces the healing of all cleric healing spells by 50%. Only 1 Mien can be active at a time."

    "Mien of Leadership - Increases the Cleric's threat generation by 450% and Endurance by 90%. Decreases all non-physical damage taken by 5%, plus an additional 1% for every point spent in the Justicar soul after 11 points(so 40%ish at 51 points). It also increases the Cleric's Armor by 100%, plus an additional 1% per point spent in the Justicar soul. Reduces all healing done by non-Justicar abilities by 40%. Only 1 Mien can be active at a time." - Obviously they'd remove thorvin's law if they added the magic reduction thing. This would allow them to be on the same level as warriors, tank wise.
    I agree with the idea of miens. But your miens are way to OP. For Inquisitor +30% damage+x is way too much.

    Right now i would say its like (single target dps roughly with same t3 gear raid buffed)
    Warrior: 2.1k
    Rogue: 1.9k
    Mage 1.8k
    cleric: 1.6k

    I would say 15%-20% damage increase is all we need.
    1.6*1.15=1.84
    1.6*1.2=1.92

    We should not out DPS any other calling with equal gear/playerskill. But we should be able to outdps worse equiped bad players, which we are not right now.

  5. #5
    RIFT Guide Writer Gyle's Avatar
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    Cleric dps is fine. Clerics are healers first and foremost. My cleric does very competitive DPS, in fact, my main being a rogue, i feel like my cleric actually does too much DPS. A comparably geared cleric should never out DPS any other class, except maybe in AoE. Clerics already tank just as well as a warrior if not better in HK, they are hands down the best healers, and they do enough DPS that if you need to scale back on healing, they actually make a solid useful contribution.

    Clerics are f-ing awesome, and if you don't think so you are not playing it right IMO.
    Hastati (50 warrior), Tsar (50 cleric), Tsaritsa (50 Mage)
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    Prophet of Telara Venditte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gyle View Post
    Cleric dps is fine. Clerics are healers first and foremost. My cleric does very competitive DPS, in fact, my main being a rogue, i feel like my cleric actually does too much DPS. A comparably geared cleric should never out DPS any other class, except maybe in AoE. Clerics already tank just as well as a warrior if not better in HK, they are hands down the best healers, and they do enough DPS that if you need to scale back on healing, they actually make a solid useful contribution.

    Clerics are f-ing awesome, and if you don't think so you are not playing it right IMO.
    Well, not all clerics want to heal. Out of the 5 roles I have, I have three tank specs, my duracell spec and my druid spec for if I ever need to dps. Maybe their dps is fine. I don't really know, because I don't dps at all on mine. I was just suggesting some ways to boost their DPS, as many think they need it. I don't think they should be the top DPS, either. They're the best healers, second best tanks and that should be good enough for one calling.

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    Well all i ever wanted is to do DPS. I choose cleric because i like the choice to go to a healing spec if my raid need it. But im getting more and more frustrated with always beeing bottom of our raid dps but having by far the best gear. This just is not how things should be in Rift.

    I dont see why everyone is against a dps cleric buff. It would not change anything for the other callings. In most raids there will still be 5 slots for each calling. And still other callings would do more dps, if equal equiped.

    If your scared of clerics in pvp: well make those miens (or other changes) only work in pve. I dont care for pvp at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathom View Post
    I agree with the idea of miens. But your miens are way to OP. For Inquisitor +30% damage+x is way too much.

    Right now i would say its like (single target dps roughly with same t3 gear raid buffed)
    Warrior: 2.1k
    Rogue: 1.9k
    Mage 1.8k
    cleric: 1.6k

    I would say 15%-20% damage increase is all we need.
    1.6*1.15=1.84
    1.6*1.2=1.92

    We should not out DPS any other calling with equal gear/playerskill. But we should be able to outdps worse equiped bad players, which we are not right now.
    Sorry but that's a poor mentality, with equal points spent toward a goal, equal capability should be obtained, if you think otherwise then go play everquest, your poor oldschool mentality is ruining the evolution of gaming.

    66 points for tanking, you tank as well, 66 points for dpsing, you dps as well, 66 points for healing, you heal as well. They are fundamentally different classes, wether you wonna dualwield, 2h, melee, ranged, cast, shoot, freeze, blow up, electrocute, corrupt. Class shouldn't dictate your ability to compete, your ability to play your class should.

    Herp derp he has 6 dps souls he should win. herp derp. No.

    First step; Do away with macros, don't permit them to keep things on CD for someone just so they can be a lazy little snot.

    Necrolock can't use them, (bar 1 to keep draining bolt on CD) Inquisitor can't use them, stormcaller can't use them. Why make specs that can just go 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 when others cannot, and hell, none should.

    Also losing non GCD abilities in favour of more potent GCD abilities would be nice. that way pvp heroes can cry us a river that we can sail upon to pve success...
    Last edited by Linian; 09-26-2011 at 11:51 AM. Reason: trolling

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    Quote Originally Posted by Movcog View Post
    Sorry but that's a poor mentality, with equal points spent toward a goal, equal capability should be obtained, if you think otherwise then go play everquest, your poor oldschool mentality is ruining the evolution of gaming.

    66 points for tanking, you tank as well, 66 points for dpsing, you dps as well, 66 points for healing, you heal as well. They are fundamentally different classes, wether you wonna dualwield, 2h, melee, ranged, cast, shoot, freeze, blow up, electrocute, corrupt. Class shouldn't dictate your ability to compete, your ability to play your class should.
    Hell im the one who started that thread asking for a damage buff. BUT i know the forums will b full of cleric haters if they buff us so much that we are top DPS. Thats y i ask for a slight buff, that at least makes us competitive and able to out dps wors players.

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    There were so many times on WoW when top dps spot would go to a feral druid, boomkin, retadin, enhance shaman. Play style depicts what class you should role, not how competetive they are.

    Especially with the way trion develops content, you cannot afford to have 2 of the 4 callings pretty much unable to be brought to dps fights in the current progression raid content without seriously and very noticably gimping the raid.

    Idk about you guys but I'd rather bring 10 2k dpsers, than 5 2.2k dpsers and 5 1600 dpsers. that's basically like having an extra cleric/mage for free.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Movcog View Post
    Especially with the way trion develops content, you cannot afford to have 2 of the 4 callings pretty much unable to be brought to dps fights in the current progression raid content without seriously and very noticably gimping the raid.

    Idk about you guys but I'd rather bring 10 2k dpsers, than 5 2.2k dpsers and 5 1600 dpsers. that's basically like having an extra cleric/mage for free.
    /sign

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    Just wanted to amend my typo of saying 2k dps then 2.2k dps, was meant to be 2k dps on both.

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    Plane Walker Halman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Movcog View Post

    First step; Do away with macros, don't permit them to keep things on CD for someone just so they can be a lazy little snot.

    Necrolock can't use them, (bar 1 to keep draining bolt on CD) Inquisitor can't use them, stormcaller can't use them. Why make specs that can just go 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 when others cannot, and hell, none should.

    Also losing non GCD abilities in favour of more potent GCD abilities would be nice. that way pvp heroes can cry us a river that we can sail upon to pve success...
    THIS.

    The macro system creates great disparity in control of different classes. Warriors and rogues can dumb everything down to 2 buttons, some clerics can do with so few as 1 button, but other specs - most notably, mages - have to rely on overly complex rotations with manually using all of the skills. Build is not the only defining factor, the complexity of rotations/controlling your character should be nr. 2 defining factor. Either make equal dps and equal complexity for all callings by removing ability macros from the game or make dps dependant on complexity of rotations, so we would not have warriors at 3k dps, rogues at 2.8k, mages at 2.6k and clerics at 2.2k, but instead stormcaller at 3k, cabalist at 2.8k, inquisitor/necrolock at 2.6k, and rogues/warriors below the 1k dps bar. Shaman and druid will then get 0, as having ONE macro with the perfect rotation is beyond ******ed.

    Since the developers fail to hear our pleas and even try to look into the macro system, well, I guess that the only way out we have is to wait for another game, where skill actually plays a role.

    p.s. Even wow, the model by which rift is built, does not have such skill macros. 1 macro = 1 skill, that simple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Halman View Post
    THIS.

    The macro system creates great disparity in control of different classes. Warriors and rogues can dumb everything down to 2 buttons, some clerics can do with so few as 1 button, but other specs - most notably, mages - have to rely on overly complex rotations with manually using all of the skills. Build is not the only defining factor, the complexity of rotations/controlling your character should be nr. 2 defining factor. Either make equal dps and equal complexity for all callings by removing ability macros from the game or make dps dependant on complexity of rotations, so we would not have warriors at 3k dps, rogues at 2.8k, mages at 2.6k and clerics at 2.2k, but instead stormcaller at 3k, cabalist at 2.8k, inquisitor/necrolock at 2.6k, and rogues/warriors below the 1k dps bar. Shaman and druid will then get 0, as having ONE macro with the perfect rotation is beyond ******ed.

    Since the developers fail to hear our pleas and even try to look into the macro system, well, I guess that the only way out we have is to wait for another game, where skill actually plays a role.

    p.s. Even wow, the model by which rift is built, does not have such skill macros. 1 macro = 1 skill, that simple.
    Thank you for sharing my view.
    It just feels like trion is doing nothing but obeying the cries of children and not actually taking an objective and unbias view of the game :S
    Feel let down... Feels bad man.jpeg

  15. #15
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    Versatility hasn't improved that much for dps. If you want to raid, you bring a 51 points build. Cabalist, shaman, druid, even inq now tests better at 51. And for most boss fights, cabalist is a loss and druid doesn't scale. Healing and tanking are far more flexible than the dps builds. To fix versatility, I have a simple solution. Move the 36 point abilities down to 16 points and lower and reduce the rate at which they scale accordingly so the 51 results is the same. Move the cabalist decay talent down from the top 5th tier to the 2nd or 3rd and do the same.

    To fix dps, Trion needs to finally move DoL deeper into the tree. Swap it with DoR, or move it higher and knock everything else down a bit. Its the only way to balance it, and it'd make a lot of healers a lot happier now that their aoe heals are meaningful. Then they need to reevaluate dps, and boost damage in a lot of places.

    But who are we kidding? 1.5 is done, just bugfixes left. Clerics are taking more nerfs. There's very little for those of us in raid gear to look forward to here. Content we've already passed, nerfs to gimp our best builds, and improvements so others can kill us faster in pvp.

    And the worst part is, still no release date for TOR. Argh.
    Last edited by Valdis43; 09-23-2011 at 03:21 AM.

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