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Thread: what happened to 1.4: CLERIC Addressing issues with Cleric damage

  1. #16
    Prophet of Telara Venditte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valdis43 View Post
    TOR
    I'm in the beta. Don't get your hopes up. It's the same thing as rift/wow, but in space.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venditte View Post
    I'm in the beta. Don't get your hopes up. It's the same thing as rift/wow, but in space.
    That's unfortunate but yeah I'd heard some people were breaking their ToS and saying yeah it's as fundamentally flawed as every other MMO, basically.

  3. #18
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    New stories, new cinematics. Just new content to get through. Problem in Rift is I've already gone through it all. Most of it twice with my warrior. Nerfs + no new content...eh. Its discouraging.

  4. #19
    Plane Walker Mlaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathom View Post
    Well all i ever wanted is to do DPS. I choose cleric because i like the choice to go to a healing spec if my raid need it. But im getting more and more frustrated with always beeing bottom of our raid dps but having by far the best gear. This just is not how things should be in Rift.
    What incentive would thier be to level up other characters thus prolonging the game life if you let one class be able to do every role..
    If all you ever wanted to do was DPS... cleric would not have been the class you would have chosen

    Infact all im seeing in your post is that you want to have the best of all roles and none of the drawbacks
    Sureen - Conspiracy

    A post spoken from the Heart contains passion, A post spoken from the head leads to intelligent debate,
    but since the majority of what I read is full of crap I guess most talk out of thier Arse

  5. #20
    Soulwalker Nyarlothotep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valdis43 View Post
    New stories, new cinematics. Just new content to get through. Problem in Rift is I've already gone through it all. Most of it twice with my warrior. Nerfs + no new content...eh. Its discouraging.
    You killed Akylios bro? Grats!

    Changing the position of DoL isn't going to make more people use 51 point healer builds it is just going to make them spec senticar rather than inquisicar or cabicar. Our dps isn't bad, it isn't great, but it isn't bad.

    On Sicaron in inquisicar I average about 1.4k dps and around 2.2k hps. In 51 shaman I can hit about 1.9k DPS which is competitive. Sure warriors and rogues are about 600 to 1000 dps higher than me but they should be when I can spec hybrid and pull good dps and great healing numbers. Clerics are in a good place right now and the only thing Trion needs to do is revert to the 1.5 stat changes for clerics. It has been too long that we depend on Int for dpsing.

  6. #21
    Champion of Telara
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    Clerics need some major love, especially with all the stupi er silly changes going on pts right now.

  7. #22
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    What I would love to see is a Decay or Conviction-based DPS increase to the Shaman and Druid souls. Give them a tertiary mechanic, and abilities that consume them, and reduce the dependency on crit. Currently, the soul is boring, and the main reason is because there is little to no thought process involved. With a macro it is a one button spam. Without a macro you are using abilities as soon as they come off cooldown, but otherwise there is nothing to choose between. Having abilities that force a decision, that are situationally advantageous, would not only make the class more fun, it could also make the class less dependent on crit, which would help lower level or undergeared Shaman a LOT.

    Otherwise the only mechanic we can take that makes the class interesting is Doctrines from the Justicar tree, which causes us to have support abilities, which justifies our damage nerf. I'd like to see a pure DPS option that does good damage without requiring insane amounts of crit to get there.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyarlothotep View Post
    You killed Akylios bro? Grats!

    Changing the position of DoL isn't going to make more people use 51 point healer builds it is just going to make them spec senticar rather than inquisicar or cabicar. Our dps isn't bad, it isn't great, but it isn't bad.

    On Sicaron in inquisicar I average about 1.4k dps and around 2.2k hps. In 51 shaman I can hit about 1.9k DPS which is competitive. Sure warriors and rogues are about 600 to 1000 dps higher than me but they should be when I can spec hybrid and pull good dps and great healing numbers. Clerics are in a good place right now and the only thing Trion needs to do is revert to the 1.5 stat changes for clerics. It has been too long that we depend on Int for dpsing.
    And I'm not likely to kill Akylios on my own. Yep, log in once a week to raid. Not much of a game there.

    I'm really failing to see how other callings doing 25% more damage in a pure-dps spec can be even remotely close to competitive. If you want to do the best, why would you ever take more than 3 clerics? Its a pure dps loss. You'd always be better off taking something else.

  9. #24
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    Cabalist was nerfed in 1.4 No death damage, no soul drain, etc.
    Sigils now eat another global, too- "streamlining" amounted to deleting the sigils.

    Inquisitor has always been a cloth dependent RNG gear failure.

    Druid is pretty good for fresh 50s, then becomes junk when you step out of T2s. It's also boring 1 button spam and needs a remake. It's gameplay is embarrassing to the game.

    Shaman is especially hilarious. Not only does the DPS look very poor compared to overpowered warriors, but its interrupt is on twice the cooldown. 6 useless overwritten buffs in the tree taking up space that could be useful stuff.
    It's also boring 1 button spam and needs a remake desperately. It's gameplay is embarrassing to the game.
    Last edited by Valanceer; 09-23-2011 at 09:33 AM.

  10. #25
    Plane Walker Sunfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valanceer View Post
    Cabalist was nerfed in 1.4 No death damage, no soul drain, etc.
    Sigils now eat another global, too- "streamlining" amounted to deleting the sigils.

    Inquisitor has always been a cloth dependent RNG gear failure.

    Druid is pretty good for fresh 50s, then becomes junk when you step out of T2s. It's also boring 1 button spam and needs a remake. It's gameplay is embarrassing to the game.

    Shaman is especially hilarious. Not only does the DPS look very poor compared to overpowered warriors, but its interrupt is on twice the cooldown. 6 useless overwritten buffs in the tree taking up space that could be useful stuff.
    It's also boring 1 button spam and needs a remake desperately. It's gameplay is embarrassing to the game.
    ^ This pretty much sums up the big issues.

    There are 3 ways to dps as a cleric in raids and they are all behind by too much right now in raw DPS and have some other major flaw in addition:

    Inquisitor: You have to wear cloth to be competitive .... everyone LOVES that - the Clerics wearing it and the Mages not getting it cause you took it.

    Shaman: Does less DPS than Druid - is more interesting to play and does scale better - but has a bunch of buffs and "utility" that are useless or a complete joke in a raid setting

    Druid: Best DPS but scales poorly with gear ... sadly itemizes better in some ways with Rogue/Warrior melee DPS items than WIS/SP ones due to the so-so conversion rate... 1 button mashing spec... Pet, which you are totally dependent on for DPS, has some really bad pathing on some HK bosses which costs you significant DPS (e.g. as you transition between Magi and boss on Zilas and the pet runs around into the water and shows up a few sec later)

    On top of all those problems and Clerics having only 2 totally obscure raid buffs that aren't overwritten by another class ... none of those specs get within 1000DPS of a warrior or rogue in HK gear .... not saying we should be top but we should have some real utility or at least that DPS gap should be closed by 1/2

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mlaar View Post
    What incentive would their be to level up other characters thus prolonging the game life if you let one class be able to do every role..
    If all you ever wanted to do was DPS... cleric would not have been the class you would have chosen

    Infact all im seeing in your post is that you want to have the best of all roles and none of the drawbacks
    Clerics have never asked for more single target dps than anyone else. Clerics have never asked for a viable support role. Clerics don't want to be able to put out any form of viable healing whilst putting out competitive dps.

    Stop trying to project some extrapolated, tangential fallacy of an argument in which Clerics are asking to be the top class in this game by a country mile. This has never been and never will be the cleric communities wishes because generally speaking we can see past the end of our noses enough to realise it's a nonsense.

    What we want is this:

    Generally speaking 20 man content requires the following make up, 1-3 tanks, anywhere from 1-3 main healers and 1-4 raidhealers, 3 support and the rest usually from 10-15 as dps (either AoE or st dps viable).

    Tanks:
    Currently in non HK content all three callings with tanking souls are viable to varying extents. Depending on the fights some callings have more of an advantage than others with warriors who have the most tanking souls being the most adaptable. In HK, it's reasonably well known the Rogue tanks have a devil of a time and need work. I can't see any reasonable person arguing with this, any of the three tank callings should be able to fill a raids requirements without overwhelmingly gimping the raid. this is balance, this is good.

    Healing:
    Currently Mages and Clerics can both main and raid heal. Like the tank situation, clerics have more options available as this is their forte but Chloromancers are viable for both main healing and raid healing in all content. Now I am aware that stacking Chloromancers on a main tank is silliness as it doesn't work which I think is an issue that needs addressing as Clerics do not have this limitation. Aside from that, you are not hamstringing your raid by using a fair proportion of Chloro's.

    Support:
    Every 20 main raid *needs* an Archon a Bard and Spotters Orders. This is where a lot of warriors tend to get distracted and tend to make arguments against Cleric dps as they feel they can only do two roles. What you need to realise is that a Warrior in a hybrid support spec is necessary for every raid but that only comes in the form of Spotters Orders. There is a real issue here in that the rest of the Warlord tree makes no difference to a raids success as it provides nothing unique that can't be covered elsewhere. What needs to happen is that a raid should need a 51 bard, a 51 Archon and a 51 Warlord. Three callings for support all required. Balance.

    DPS:
    Now we get to the thorny issue of dps, the wonderful word of one-upmanship and willy waving as my number is bigger than your number. All four callings have dps souls and dps makes up the majority of any raid; you are talking about 1/2 to 3/4's of a raid being an awful lot worse on a single target fight unless they use 1 rogue spec or 2-3 Warrior specs, rubbish, plain and simple. There is no sensible, logical argument for all 4 callings (which all have a minimum of 50% of their souls as offensive) to be unable to put out comparative AoE & ST dps. If you need to fill out the remaining half the raid with players you should be able to pick the 10-15 best people you have (accounting for skill and gear levels) without prejudicing from their chosen class. Bingo, balance.

    Now if anyone doesn't want this scenario to occur I can only conclude it's because they are afraid that their natural advantage in class choice might no longer save them their raid spot. At no point would all dps being comparative in AoE and ST situations would it be worthwhile having all clerics, or all warriors, or all rogues etc.... and this is the point I'm trying to make...

    The majority of the raid should flexible enough to be selected on player skill and gear level not class, this will never happen unless all four callinsg AOE and ST dps is comparable. Stop fearing a fair and balanced system.

    TLR

    1) Rogue tanking is gimped in HK. Fix it.
    2) Not being able to stack Chloromancers as an MT healer on the same target is daft. Fix it.
    3) Warlord should be a required support soul like Archon and Bard, not a required 2 point root skill. Fix it.
    4) All callings should be able to bring comparable ST and AoE dps so players have a chance to be selected on ability and gear, not a choice made 6 months ago before multiple changes.

    Balance, not stupidity.

  12. #27
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gyle View Post
    Cleric dps is fine. Clerics are healers first and foremost.
    4 DPS souls versus 3 1/2 healing souls (justicar doesn't count as a healing soul as healing is secondary). So I would disagree with this. A huge part of the class? Most definitely. First and foremost? No.

    Rift's design is such that it allows players to play their characters in a variety of ways. This is a major selling point that Rift has. Just because some players want to play their characters the way they would like to and not the way you want them to doesn't mean that those souls should be essentially worthless (a character in a subpar DPS role in a raid weakens the raid and hinders everyone).

    Asking that one of our 4 DPS roles be competitive (not superior as many interpret that to mean) is not too much to ask for me thinks since DPS roles account for half of all roles available to clerics. Though really they should all be competitive.

  13. #28
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    Many good arguments here, i hope Trion will ever listen to us...because with 1.5 right now, we will only have ONE viable raid specc again. And that is Inquisitor. Shaman dps will get nerfed by roughly (60%-45%=15%; 15% * 30%) 4.5%. The better your gear (crit) the more your damage will get nerfed.

    With rogues and mages getting some major buff this patch, this will lead to a roughly 400 dps gap from the best cleric dps to the worst dps of any other callings.

  14. #29
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mlaar View Post
    What incentive would thier be to level up other characters thus prolonging the game life if you let one class be able to do every role..
    If all you ever wanted to do was DPS... cleric would not have been the class you would have chosen

    Infact all im seeing in your post is that you want to have the best of all roles and none of the drawbacks
    I already told you that. Play style.
    Wether you're a DoT reliant melee, a ranged physical, a dualwielder, a 2her, a pet class, blow stuff up, punish them with divine will and all that stuff. I don't go play a beat em up in an arcade game and go "oh god all this is is pushing buttons, it's just like playing rift" it's not the pressing of the keyboard that makes your class, it's what those buttons do.

    Can anyone else with a similair comment to come just go headbutt a wall a few times til you pass out so we can do without the same things being re-covered over and over and over and over.

    It's fundamentally unacceptable for half the callings to be a massive loss being brought to a raid. If you don't think running with 5 2k dps warriors/rogues and 5 1.6k mages/clerics is a loss, try doing HK progression with relavant gear (T1 raid gear) and losing 2k dps just because you're blissfully ignorant as to how inferior clerics/mages are.

    on WoW; Druids can compete on all 3 roles, as can paladins. There's no acceptable reason why clerics/mages should be so far behind. Mages especially.

    They've already proven they have mechanics in place to detect usage vs players to usage vs mobs, simply impliment that to skills that there are pvp concerns with. Bobs your uncle problem solved.

    Also game life doesn't = rolling 1 of every class, not unless you suck at pvp or pve, or simply have too much time on your hands, that's what I've got league of legends for.

  15. #30
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hatec View Post
    TL;DR

    1) Rogue tanking is gimped in HK. Fix it.
    2) Not being able to stack Chloromancers as an MT healer on the same target is daft. Fix it.
    3) Warlord should be a required support soul like Archon and Bard, not a required 2 point root skill. Fix it.
    4) All callings should be able to bring comparable ST and AoE dps so players have a chance to be selected on ability and gear, not a choice made 6 months ago before multiple changes.

    Balance, not stupidity.
    I love you, I just wish trion would actually read the constructive threads, not the "WHERE DID HIT AND RUN GO OH MY GOD HALP HALP HALP" threads.

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