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Thread: PVP Soul Problems in Light of Upcoming Rogue 1.5 Changes

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    Banned overbyte's Avatar
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    Default PVP Soul Problems in Light of Upcoming Rogue 1.5 Changes

    As a long time WOW rogue (played it for years!), I view these upcoming Rogue 1.5 changes with apprehension. They remind me of the growing pains with rogues in World of Warcraft. Fundamentally, the problem you have is to balance rogue damage output and survivability against a rogue's unmitigated burst damage from stealth.

    In WOW, this problem was mitigated with the introduction of huge health pools in the expansion. Prior to this, it was commonplace take a player from 100% health to 0% health within the duration of a "stunlock". Additionally, WOW added abilities that reduced damage while stunned, talents that proc a heal when stunned, and even talents that increased a chance to be missed when escaping.

    Herein lies the problem: while Rift does have some abilities that reduce damage while stunned, they are located in the PVP tree (Templar and Archmage) and require PVP Rank 5 to obtain. In short, these abilities are inaccessible to lower ranked players, who are the most likely candidates to be stunlocked from 100->0.

    Being completely killed while unable to control your character makes PVP frustrating and detracts from the gameplay.

    If 1.5 goes live in its current form the problem that will arise is people complaining most about getting destroyed from a stunlock from 1 or more rogues with little to no recourse (Break Free can only be used once every 2 minutes), while the only abilities that could help mitigate this are only accessible with a deep investment in the PVP tree which requires a rather substantial PVP rank.

    I believe Trion's goal is to make a rogue as big a threat as a warrior. People complain now about getting destroyed in short order from a warrior. What do you think their reactions will be when they don't see their opponent coming and take the same damage, all while stunlocked?

    I think that some of the tools to balance out the 1.5 Rogue DPS boost exist, but the cost to obtain them (deep PVP tree investment) is very high, or impossible to obtain, based upon your PVP rank. However, not all the tools are there, and the HP pools are certainly not at "WOW" levels to balance it out.
    Last edited by overbyte; 09-20-2011 at 01:19 PM.

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    Break free is 0 points in? I don't get this one.

    If you're talking about group PvP (<2 min between engagements) then the rogue will probably see IMMUNE IMMUNE IMMUNE IMMUNE
    Last edited by Swordfishy; 09-20-2011 at 01:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordfishy View Post
    Break free is 0 points in? I don't get this one.

    If you're talking about group PvP (<2 min between engagements) then the rogue will probably see IMMUNE IMMUNE IMMUNE IMMUNE
    I'm sorry you don't understand my post. Try reading it a few more times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by overbyte View Post
    I'm sorry you don't understand my post. Try reading it a few more times.
    I believe that what Swordfishy is trying to get at is the fact that if you have Break Free (which you should), you will be able to negate the stunlock. Swordfishy was also pointing out that in larger scale PvP engagements, you will likely be on DR, effectively cutting the duration of the first stun in half, or being completely immune to the stun.

    Your concerns about being killed in a stunlock would be more valid if it weren't for the horrid DR system that Rift has in place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by overbyte View Post
    I'm sorry you don't understand my post. Try reading it a few more times.
    I did, and it was still bad. Namely because you compared it to WoW, where the DR system works and stuns are useful even with all options other characters have to help them out. Assassins in WoW by WotLK were so far off of what an actual assassin was it was a joke. The guy above me understands.

    Stunlocks are a joke in this game, the only time you will be affected by one that badly is in OPvP. A 2 minute timer should give you enough time to have it up nearly every fight.
    Last edited by Swordfishy; 09-20-2011 at 01:40 PM.
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    The obvious solution is for stealthy Rogues to understand that they should not have competitive DPS with warriors, mages, and non-stealthy Rogues (Clerics have pretty crap damage overall so I'm going to ignore them). The rogue community seems to have the opinion that a stealthy Rogue should have the right to kill absolutely anyone they deem worthy of unstealthing on - regardless of the situation and regardless of whether they use the tools given to them to deal with that situation.

    -Liang

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    if those assasin rogues had a way to choose their fights and not stupidly attack whatever comes to tab, this would make the whole "assasin" thing awesome! They could avaoid targets that have been hit in teh last 15 seconds or just not be seen if there are too many oponents

    Most rogues want to charge in, then stunlock kill a tank, tab a healer, stunlock kill him too and then get away. and then repeat within 20 seconds.

    I fear that with 1.5 the above exaggeration won't be that far away from the truth anymore...

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    Stuns in Rift don't last long enough for rogues to be stunlocking people. Assuming no DR on the target when the rogue opens, they're looking at 2s worth of GCDs to produce 6s worth of stuns. That leaves 4 GCDs to kill someone. In a game like Rift where I know DR can be an issue, why in the blue hell would I even consider wasting the damage from an opener like Jagged Strike or Assassinate to try and land a 4s stun that might just as easily be a wasted GCD when the target is immune? And why would I further the idiocy by wasting another GCD to apply a 2s stun after Paralyzing Strike's stun wore off? That's a 1s GCD gone to give me one GCD worth of offense before my target is immune to stuns altogether. It's a stupid way to play an assassin in PvP and stunlocking people from 100-0 is not likely to be an issue.

    The sky is not falling.

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    Rogues havent really gotten any increase in burst damage in the Assassin tree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vindicit View Post
    Rogues havent really gotten any increase in burst damage in the Assassin tree.
    There's a whole thread dedicated to this topic. The tl;dr of posts by your fellow Rogues is that you're totally wrong.

    -Liang

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordfishy View Post
    I did, and it was still bad. Namely because you compared it to WoW, where the DR system works and stuns are useful even with all options other characters have to help them out. Assassins in WoW by WotLK were so far off of what an actual assassin was it was a joke. The guy above me understands.

    Stunlocks are a joke in this game, the only time you will be affected by one that badly is in OPvP. A 2 minute timer should give you enough time to have it up nearly every fight.
    Your bias is palatable and blinds your ability to assess. Needless to say, I won't partake in feeding your troll belly any further. My post stands on its own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liang Nuren View Post
    There's a whole thread dedicated to this topic. The tl;dr of posts by your fellow Rogues is that you're totally wrong.

    -Liang
    The issue is a full assassin soul burst damage is based off 1) better dots 2) better poisons 3) better stealth attacks.

    There is no improvement at all in front-side damage. So, it's the same old assassin tactics again with a little wrinkle (Slip) now.

    Trion is forcing PvP melees to use different souls to improve damage while 51pt souls lose out (Namely assassins).

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    I have a quasi serious question - seeing as how Assassins never ever ever get to use their stun anyway, what would you guys think of turning Paralyzing Strike and Foul Play into something like the Archon Power Drain and/or Dominator Accelerated Decay?

    Paralyzing Strike: Roots the target for 4seconds and reduces enemy spell casting speed by 50% for 6 seconds
    Foul Play: Reduces enemy spellpower/attack power by 50% and snares the target, reducing movement speed by 70% for 4 seconds (20m range)

    While this is potentially extremely overpowered, it seems like this solves every problem I've seen complained about:
    - The target is still able to control their character (this is really important - the CC and DR systems in Rift are pretty ******ed IMO)
    - Assassins get a great ranged snare (yay!)
    - The effects are uncommon enough that you shouldn't get immune spam
    - The effects don't overlap so you're able to CC for longer (or simply more effectively)

    -Liang

    Ed: It occurs to me that it's actually far far more powerful than your current CC - because break free wouldn't remove the effects of the debuffs. This would definitely be very overpowered on the new gankier Assassin.
    Last edited by Liang Nuren; 09-20-2011 at 02:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liang Nuren View Post
    I have a quasi serious question - seeing as how Assassins never ever ever get to use their stun anyway, what would you guys think of turning Paralyzing Strike and Foul Play into something like the Archon Power Drain and/or Dominator Accelerated Decay?

    Paralyzing Strike: Roots the target for 4seconds and reduces enemy spell casting speed by 50% for 6 seconds
    Foul Play: Reduces enemy spellpower/attack power by 50% and snares the target, reducing movement speed by 70% for 4 seconds (20m range)

    While this is potentially extremely overpowered, it seems like this solves every problem I've seen complained about:
    - The target is still able to control their character (this is really important - the CC and DR systems in Rift are pretty ******ed IMO)
    - Assassins get a great ranged snare (yay!)
    - The effects are uncommon enough that you shouldn't get immune spam
    - The effects don't overlap so you're able to CC for longer (or simply more effectively)

    -Liang

    Ed: It occurs to me that it's actually far far more powerful than your current CC - because break free wouldn't remove the effects of the debuffs. This would definitely be very overpowered on the new gankier Assassin.
    I don't think assassins need that. Just more punch up front.

    The problem is that warrirors/clerics will be happy to stand toe to toe w/ any rogue because they can without fear of dying. Give rogues/assassins more front-side damage (burst) and this will force them to think twice about standing toe to toe.

    Rogues (PvP) should be a "tad" better in the damage department than warriors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hivolt View Post
    I don't think assassins need that. Just more punch up front.

    The problem is that warrirors/clerics will be happy to stand toe to toe w/ any rogue because they can without fear of dying. Give rogues/assassins more front-side damage (burst) and this will force them to think twice about standing toe to toe.

    Rogues (PvP) should be a "tad" better in the damage department than warriors.
    And seeing as how you quite freely interchange the term rogue and assassin, I'm left to wonder whether or not you think that assassins should deal better DPS than Warriors or whether non-stealthy rogues should deal better DPS than warriors? I'm totally fine with the second option. The first is totally ******** - you should make concessions to have the ultimate survivability tools.

    -Liang

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