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Thread: PVP Soul Problems in Light of Upcoming Rogue 1.5 Changes

  1. #61
    Ascendant Liang Nuren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wargawd View Post
    Liang stealth does not = damage mitigation. That is a hilarious argument to make and I can see right through why you would make it. You are over emphasizing positives and applying them all around trying to make it sound like we are not that bad off.

    Your agenda is showing.

    The sheer amount of your posts, the fact that you are arguing with anyone and everyone who has an opinion different from yours it is becoming more and more obvious.
    While we can certainly speak of damage avoidance separately from damage mitigation, it's somewhat harder to speak to them in a combined sense (except to say "the tank", which brings an entirely different concept to mind). As such, I make the claim that a damage attack that is either prevented or avoided is effectively 100% mitigated. With this, we can say that damage avoidance is a strict subset of damage mitigation. Thus, stealth (a way of preventing attacks entirely) is a form of damage mitigation.

    As an object example: consider making your way towards a point on the map through a horde of enemies. If you make your way without stealth, you will take X damage. If you make your way with stealth, you will take 0 damage. You prevented, or mitigated, X damage from happening. And ultimately, if even that offends you, there is no way to say it other than "assassins have the best tank in the entire game, until they choose to drop it".

    Regarding my so-called agenda... you're right. I absolutely have one - a good and balanced game for everyone. I feel that my name is worth quite a lot (5+ years and an incredible number of forum posts with it), and I try to make myself a good source of information and advice about the games I play.

    Regarding balance: in my opinion, its not the median, but the extremes, that need examining when doing balance. Certain considerations need to be made for the difficulty of engineering a favorable encounter - a mechanic that generates an extremely high chance of a favorable outcome should have a lower expected outcome (where expected outcomes are not really binary 'yes', 'no' but rather on a sliding scale). Remember: by definition, any mechanic that makes it extremely easy to generate a highly positive outcome is overpowered.

    Thus, the reason I'm so against having the assassin (the stealth soul) also be the gank soul is because it is quite literally faceroll easy to engineer a positive outcome with stealth. Gank DPS should go to some other soul... maybe one that's not used very often right now. Now, please bear in mind that I'm not saying Assassin shouldn't do reasonable burst DPS - that door swings the other way too. It being exceptionally hard to generate a positive outcome is also a bad thing.

    -Liang

  2. #62
    Ascendant Liang Nuren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagurasu View Post
    ... meaningless arguments that rather agreed with me ...
    Ok. Not sure why you felt the need to "disagree" with me.

    Also, you see 51 sins because the 51 point talent for that soul is actually worth getting.
    You can't weigh 51 sin based just on the merits of Serpent Strike - you have to weigh it on everything it takes to get there. Assassin as a whole provides excellent survivability (until you choose to drop it, a 100% damage avoidance tank), pretty substantial burst damage, pretty substantial sustained damage, pretty good CC, and passable self heals.

    It's really no wonder that nobody uses the other souls when you can have all that.

    I bet you'd be surprised how often that would happen post patch. I suspect many a QQ thread from sins getting owned when they use slip away.
    I'm not going to be too surprised - I've repeatedly made the prediction that we're going to see a massive outpouring of tears from rogues who subconsciously expected literal god mode from the boosts. It'll sting even more because there'll be so many QQ threads about how OP rogues are, and these people are going to have to come to the realization that it hasn't been their class that's been ****ting on them... it's their own incompetence.

    Testing is being done in PVE gear with the PVE crystal. I shouldn't have to say what would happen if you went into PVP with that build/gear.
    Testing was done both with and without the PVE crystal - and total gear stats are fairly similar between the two sets and appropriately ranked PVP gear. Feel free to do a different parse with PVP gear on. You can even use a player receiving heals as a target.

    NB does fairly decently in large fights because it has the defensive cooldowns to tank incoming damage while dishing out it's own. Assassins don't. They have single target damage and really no way to mitigate any incoming damage outside of Slip Away, which as you have said, is getting nerfed. So no more immunity to mitigate damage.
    I see lots of talk of these mythical nightblade specs that do good damage and are survivable. Never actually seen one - though I certainly see lots of 31+ Assassins with some Nightblade mixed in.

    It does not have it all, plain and simple.
    Outside of range, it really... really does.

    -Liang

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xsi View Post
    The point was to:
    (1) show the inaccuracy of the statement made and show that you are making assumptions not stated in a circumstance that is very unlikely to ever happen outside of theory-ville (READ: Never).
    The inaccuracy of the statement is meh. You want to quibble over a small fraction of a second that the vast majority of the time doesn't even matter because of client-server latency...

    (2) prove every moment counts in PvP (fractions of seconds matter) and thereby shows flaw in your justification of the OP factor. But yet you do not address that other classes that can do the same but in even less time and/or with less cooldowns (when the stars align like has to happen for the Assassin to pull this off on a stationary target from the back).
    please point out where I said it was OP? Never said that. And at this point, I'm not aware of any other class that can put out ~10k damage on a full gear R8.

    (3) show there is no 'whining' in the post or context except that which you believe is stated. I'm merely pointing out the story-theory of what happens next (expanding the realm of the ideal 'stars align' circumstance to show other classes that do the same thing are not put in a similar rogue-deprived circumstance)
    What deprived circumstance? I'm going to lol at this response.

    (4) show your math is terrible or you do not know what the SC build charge/unleash hell sequence is (since we are talking "perfect" world of I'm not getting CC'd/hit theory-ville).
    I'm sorry you are bad at using multiple immunities and break frees.

    ...(5) show you that "full R8 valor" is the same "full R2 valor" now.
    No it isn't the same. Full R8 is sitting between 1150-1200 valor. R2 is sitting between 850-900.

  4. #64
    Ascendant Zaros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorovos View Post
    Again, you claimed your rogue was rank 8 on the test server, posted a video of it, with you losing to a Rank 8 mage, Even though we can clearly look at your HP LVL and determine either you removed large portions of your gear for the video, OR you're not Rank 8.

    So either way you're dishonest and cannot be trusted with anything you say on this forum.
    Okay, I admit it. That character is actually my rank 7, with 1.1k valor that I copyed to PTS from live. You caught me. I'm sure if I had an extra 1k health, and +10 DPS weapons that Chlorolock would've been DOWNED, right?

    The answer is no. You're missing the point and focusing in on something utterly irrelevant, because you have no rebuttal whatsoever to the actual topic. So keep tunnelvisioning in on the fact that he's one rank higher than me, and ignore the fact he didn't pop detaunt, shadow life, neddra's essence, dark fury, and I used both my 2 minute cooldowns.

    Because my health pool being slightly less than desired is really the deciding factor, isn't it. No, it's not.

    You're welcome to copy a Rogue to the PTS and try to fight a Chlorolock. I'm absolutely positive you'll win, because Rogues are so utterly overpowered these days, why wouldn't you? Go ahead, post a video. I dare you.
    ~Quiescent

  5. #65
    Plane Touched Dagurasu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liang Nuren View Post

    You can't weigh 51 sin based just on the merits of Serpent Strike - you have to weigh it on everything it takes to get there. Assassin as a whole provides excellent survivability (until you choose to drop it, a 100% damage avoidance tank), pretty substantial burst damage, pretty substantial sustained damage, pretty good CC, and passable self heals.

    It's really no wonder that nobody uses the other souls when you can have all that.
    In rank 6 gear, 747 AP, Enduring Brew heals for 1087, and it's on a 1 minute cooldown. A 1k heal in PVP is worthless IMO. It'd keep me alive for at most 2 globals of any other class attacking me. The whole soul is basically geared towards the first 10 seconds out of stealth, I would surely hope that it had burst damage(which, depending on who you ask, is arguable).


    I'm not going to be too surprised - I've repeatedly made the prediction that we're going to see a massive outpouring of tears from rogues who subconsciously expected literal god mode from the boosts. It'll sting even more because there'll be so many QQ threads about how OP rogues are, and these people are going to have to come to the realization that it hasn't been their class that's been ****ting on them... it's their own incompetence.
    I meant it in more of the scope that a mage will lay down an AoE and "oops, I accidentally killed a rogue trollface.jpg." Granted, if you're using SA as a getaway mechanic or when you're on your last leg, then shame on you. Any good sin will use it to reopen on a target.


    Testing was done both with and without the PVE crystal - and total gear stats are fairly similar between the two sets and appropriately ranked PVP gear. Feel free to do a different parse with PVP gear on. You can even use a player receiving heals as a target.
    PVE gear with PVE crystal =/= PVP Gear with PVP crystal. Nor does it account for a whole host of other issues that you cannot measure with the dummy. At most we're talking about gear equal to rank 6, which as any r8 will tell is, is blow out of the water by r8.



    I see lots of talk of these mythical nightblade specs that do good damage and are survivable. Never actually seen one - though I certainly see lots of 31+ Assassins with some Nightblade mixed in.
    Just because most derps don't play them doesn't mean that others don't. I have a much harder time fighting through NB cooldowns than I do for any other calling outside of Chlorolock or a healer.



    Outside of range, it really... really does.

    -Liang
    What? That makes no sense whatsoever.

    You wanna out a class for being OP, you can surely do better. Nightblade for example. It has stealth(which you seem to hate like a woman scorn), a 16 point 50% heal debuff with a 20% heal siphon, an 80% damage reduction that lasts for 8 seconds, a 50% damage reduction with a 50% heal that ticks over 4 seconds, a straight up 100% damage shield that lasts for 6 seconds and the only thing that hits you through it are dots that were already applied when it was activated. A ranged snare, a ranged finisher that, given the right circumstances will crit you for close to 2000 damage. An in-combat sap in the same flavor of Blinding Powder. Couple that with extremely high burst damage and passable sustained damage and I don't know why more derps aren't running this spec. Oh yeah, and it's all elemental damage = no armor mitigation.

    Seriously, if you're going to make an argument for classes "having it all" there are better targets than assassin. But seeing as it's very clear that you have an agenda with assassin, I'm just gunna leave you alone, since it seems like you're going to stamp your feet until you get whatever it is that you want.
    Last edited by Dagurasu; 09-22-2011 at 06:57 AM.

  6. #66
    Telaran
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    Jesus Christ, is this debate still going on? As it stands right now, rogue's are no threat to anyone. After the patch this will continue to be true. So all of you other 3 classes will continue to laugh as the stealthed rogue opens up on you and his damage is so pitiful you can just ignore it and move on to a real threat.

    Trion has no clue how to balance this game and people are beginning to leave in droves, and it isn't just rogues either.

    And to the people QQing about rogues being completely OP...you DO realize that 1.5 isn't even out yet correct? And they just nerfed the vast majority of the "buffs" they were supposed to be getting? Get your head out of your ***

  7. #67
    Rift Master youkiddingme's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=overbyte;3160976]As

    If 1.5 goes live in its current form the problem that will arise is people complaining most about getting destroyed from a stunlock from 1 or more rogues with little to no recourse (Break Free can only be used once every 2 minutes), while the only abilities that could help mitigate this are only accessible with a deep investment in the PVP tree which requires a rather substantial PVP rank.

    QUOTE]

    HAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAAA

    This is already happening to most of us. I have seen them do it and not a damn thing you can do is go to bathroom and come back and rez. There are some seriously skilled rogues on some sever. These guys are gods and make average players look like chump change.

    In one fight, a only a rank 5 rogue and seen him stun lock a warrior who also rank 5 (how he did it I have no clue), got him to 60% fade to black. Hit him again and then he dies on third attempt.

    He then complains in 50 chat for hours on how warriors are not top dps and that 1.5 will kill warriors. That sad little event got the rest of server saying warriors are always under performs and that next patch will kill the warrior dps. That warriors dps actually need a boast. Geezer my rank 1 warrior can kill rank 3 mages, rogues and some clerics want more does a person want.

    BTW I have 7 level 50. Do you think it time to get a life? I am thinking of going for a second rogue to round it off to even 8.

    I find it amusing that the one that canít play whine the most. But even I have to say this and being honest. The next patch is going to suck for us average players and make those rare elites god in this game. Yet, can Trion really kill the 98 % of us average players just cause the 2% gods. The answer is yes and here we go again.

    So rogues we are going to be the dogs of Trion. Beaten, starved and generally left out to the cold. Like good dogs we keep coming back for more and more scrapes (i.E.) patches.

    So get used to it

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