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Thread: PVP Soul Problems in Light of Upcoming Rogue 1.5 Changes

  1. #46
    Ascendant Liang Nuren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auchter View Post
    It is if you have the punch to follow it up.
    What part of my comment were you specifically referring to, please? Also, since this is the first time you have personally addressed me: Did you play Guild Wars and did you attend ASU? I knew a guy that attended ASU and went by the name "Auchter" a few years back. It would be very interesting to know if you are him.

    -Liang

  2. #47
    Xsi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durango View Post
    So you'll have to wait .xx seconds on the last FB, big deal.



    All those numbers are full R8 valor on armored targets. You might need to respec your gear if you can't hit that.



    so now you are complaining that you just did more burst than any other class from stealth and don't have a get away free card. boo friggin hoo.



    Doesn't matter WHAT they do, I'll still get the attacks in and still kill them. There is of course some skill involved.



    to do the same amount of damage against the same target? roughly 18-20 seconds.



    you do realize that the new assassinate has 150% bonus AP contribution and bypasses armor right?
    The point was to:
    (1) show the inaccuracy of the statement made and show that you are making assumptions not stated in a circumstance that is very unlikely to ever happen outside of theory-ville (READ: Never).
    (2) prove every moment counts in PvP (fractions of seconds matter) and thereby shows flaw in your justification of the OP factor. But yet you do not address that other classes that can do the same but in even less time and/or with less cooldowns (when the stars align like has to happen for the Assassin to pull this off on a stationary target from the back).
    (3) show there is no 'whining' in the post or context except that which you believe is stated. I'm merely pointing out the story-theory of what happens next (expanding the realm of the ideal 'stars align' circumstance to show other classes that do the same thing are not put in a similar rogue-deprived circumstance)
    (4) show your math is terrible or you do not know what the SC build charge/unleash hell sequence is (since we are talking "perfect" world of I'm not getting CC'd/hit theory-ville).

    ...(5) show you that "full R8 valor" is the same "full R2 valor" now.

    Believe it or not, I agree that full-spec Assassin should not do everything. If it feels too easy, it probably is.
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  3. #48
    Xsi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liang Nuren View Post
    See, the thing about it is that I'm totally fine with fearing Rogues as the omg in my face MDPS class. I'm totally fine fearing Rogues as the omg RDPS class. I am utterly able to mentally separate assassins and rogues. What I am not fine with is Assassins (permastealth + slip away + self heals, etc, etc, etc) having really nothing to give up vs the other melee rogue souls - or making it such that if an assassin deigns to unstealth upon me, he shall win regardless of player skill involved.

    On the other hand, you seem to be subconsciously assuming that all Rogues are Assassins - and while this is potentially true, I contend it shouldn't be, and that Assassin should easily be the weakest melee soul Rogues have. In fact, I contend that even swapping the DPS potential of BD and Assassin, we'd still see 51 Assassins and not 51 BD.

    Stealth is an extremely powerful tool.

    -Liang
    I thought this would be obvious but it bears stating here; Assassin's penalties are "single-target" AND "melee range". While you may not agree that these are proper balancing techniques against the overall power of stealth, they are important in showing that Sin balance is not as far off as it could be.

    Stealth is also already penalized inherently by a 30-second duration and 10-second cooldown (out of combat also required) with 70% normal movement speed. The Assassin soul tree just has the talents to remove 3 of the 3 Stealth penalties (1 only on a 2 minute cooldown with Slip Away). If that's your issue, state it. But with the investment required in the Assassin tree (and 4 spec points to remove them), I'm not sure we'll agree that the stealth issues aren't already balanced.
    Last edited by Xsi; 09-21-2011 at 12:45 PM.
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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xsi View Post
    Stealth is also already penalized inherently by a 30-second duration and 10-second cooldown (out of combat also required) with 70% normal movement speed. The Assassin soul tree just has the talents to remove 3 of the 3 Stealth penalties (1 only on a 2 minute cooldown with Slip Away). If that's your issue, state it. But with the investment required in the Assassin tree (and 4 spec points to remove them), I'm not sure we'll agree that the stealth issues aren't already balanced.
    Except for the fact that speed boosting abilities continue to work while stealthed (and even the eth racial works while stealthed and doesn't drop if your hit in pvp)
    "Power is neccessary because conflict will never dissappear"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xsi View Post
    I thought this would be obvious but it bears stating here; Assassin's penalties are "single-target" AND "melee range". While you may not agree that these are proper balancing techniques against the overall power of stealth, they are important in showing that Sin balance is not as far off as it could be.

    Stealth is also already penalized inherently by a 30-second duration and 10-second cooldown (out of combat also required) with 70% normal movement speed. The Assassin soul tree just has the talents to remove 3 of the 3 Stealth penalties (1 only on a 2 minute cooldown with Slip Away). If that's your issue, state it. But with the investment required in the Assassin tree (and 4 spec points to remove them), I'm not sure we'll agree that the stealth issues aren't already balanced.
    I agree that 51 Assassins/15 Infiltrators are limited by melee range and single target DPS. And yet, 51 Assassin specs obviously exist and are so commonly used that many people (including most Rogues!) freely interchange the term rogue and assassin. No matter how you slice this pie, Assassins are far too common for rogue builds and arguing for any sizable Assassin buffs is exactly the wrong thing to be doing.

    Anyway, you're failing to recognize the basic point I'm trying to make: the concessions that Assassins make (MDPS, ST DPS, a few talent points) are obviously insufficient to make up for what they gain:
    - Excellent survivability. Not having to fight everyone between you and the healer/mage you're targeting is amazing survivability. Not having to fight at all is even bigger survivability.
    - Excellent target selection. Picking the time, place, and target is amazingly powerful, even in Warfronts. In Open World PVP its down right overpowered.
    - Convenience (not having to re-stealth, no speed nerf). People are often willing to make very substantial sacrifices for convenience.
    - Slip Away - a talent that doubles as both the single best PVP survivability talent in existence as well as the single best burst DPS talent (yay re-opening!).
    - Excellent ST DPS (There is a thread on this, on the front page of the PTS forums)
    - Excellent Burst DPS (There's another thread on this, in the first two pages of the PTS forums).

    You can make the argument that sacrificing a few points into a soul tree can offset all this, but I'm not sure it matters when the points offer such convenience, survivability, and target selection. Consider the difference between those three points and Wildfire from the Pyro tree (where fully half the tree is considered fluff by the mage community).

    Thus, I am contending that Assassins embody too much. The existence of a soul with such high survivability, high target selection, high sustained DPS, and high burst DPS completely obviates the need for other rogue DPS souls like BD and NB. Thus, my problem isn't with Assassins having great DPS, great burst, or great stealthing. Its with them having everthing.

    To quote you: "If it feels too easy, it probably is."

    -Liang

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by overbyte View Post
    As a long time WOW rogue (played it for years!)
    This is where I stopped reading

    seeee yaaaaaaaaaaa

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorovos View Post
    This guy claimed his rogue was Rank 8 in another thread, even though his Rank 8 Rogue has less HP then a Fresh Rank 6 Geared Rogue on Test server.
    This guy claimed his Chlorolock was balanced in another thread even though a rank 8 Rogue gets rolled by a Fresh Rank 6 Geared Mage on Test Server.
    ~Quiescent

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaros View Post
    This guy claimed his Chlorolock was balanced in another thread even though a rank 8 Rogue gets rolled by a Fresh Rank 6 Geared Mage on Test Server.
    I'm not entirely positive what you mean here. It seems like you're saying that a R8 Rogue (any, you?) got killed by a R6 mage (how fresh is kinda immaterial) on the test server. That's probably true... but strictly speaking, if the person with an interest in getting rogues boosted/keeping rogues unnerfed is the R8 Rogue, its pretty easy to game the test. I can make a video of any class getting pummeled by any other class if my goal is to get my class boosted.

    -Liang

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liang Nuren View Post
    I'm not entirely positive what you mean here. It seems like you're saying that a R8 Rogue (any, you?) got killed by a R6 mage (how fresh is kinda immaterial) on the test server. That's probably true... but strictly speaking, if the person with an interest in getting rogues boosted/keeping rogues unnerfed is the R8 Rogue, its pretty easy to game the test. I can make a video of any class getting pummeled by any other class if my goal is to get my class boosted.

    -Liang
    I was just replying to his BS post with adequate BS. Rogues aren't overpowered.
    ~Quiescent

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liang Nuren View Post
    I agree that 51 Assassins/15 Infiltrators are limited by melee range and single target DPS. And yet, 51 Assassin specs obviously exist and are so commonly used that many people (including most Rogues!) freely interchange the term rogue and assassin. No matter how you slice this pie, Assassins are far too common for rogue builds and arguing for any sizable Assassin buffs is exactly the wrong thing to be doing.

    Anyway, you're failing to recognize the basic point I'm trying to make: the concessions that Assassins make (MDPS, ST DPS, a few talent points) are obviously insufficient to make up for what they gain:
    - Excellent survivability. Not having to fight everyone between you and the healer/mage you're targeting is amazing survivability. Not having to fight at all is even bigger survivability.
    - Excellent target selection. Picking the time, place, and target is amazingly powerful, even in Warfronts. In Open World PVP its down right overpowered.
    - Convenience (not having to re-stealth, no speed nerf). People are often willing to make very substantial sacrifices for convenience.
    - Slip Away - a talent that doubles as both the single best PVP survivability talent in existence as well as the single best burst DPS talent (yay re-opening!).
    - Excellent ST DPS (There is a thread on this, on the front page of the PTS forums)
    - Excellent Burst DPS (There's another thread on this, in the first two pages of the PTS forums).

    You can make the argument that sacrificing a few points into a soul tree can offset all this, but I'm not sure it matters when the points offer such convenience, survivability, and target selection. Consider the difference between those three points and Wildfire from the Pyro tree (where fully half the tree is considered fluff by the mage community).

    Thus, I am contending that Assassins embody too much. The existence of a soul with such high survivability, high target selection, high sustained DPS, and high burst DPS completely obviates the need for other rogue DPS souls like BD and NB. Thus, my problem isn't with Assassins having great DPS, great burst, or great stealthing. Its with them having everthing.

    To quote you: "If it feels too easy, it probably is."

    -Liang
    So you are whining because rogues forced to play 51 sin to deal dmg. 99% mage out there run with chlorolock, and same with warrior's 51 RB, why dont you ever mention about them?

    I agree that slip away is too good, just like Lingering Wound, AOE fear, or Planar Blade of Warriors. Yes, it is going to get nerfed in next patch, no more dmg immunity with slip away, it will be just another re-opener.

    I totally disagree about high sustained dmg part of Sin. 51 Sin basically relies on burst dmg (1st 10 seconds after opening) to take down the target. After that, if he/she is still stuck in the fight+ cannot re-open, his/her dmg is just so-so.

    The play style of sin is good for 1v1 in open world pvp, which is only good for annoying people right now. In WF, camping a spot (since sin cannot fight well in a big fight) = afk 80% of time = no contribution to your team.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlientShadow View Post
    So you are whining because rogues forced to play 51 sin to deal dmg. 99% mage out there run with chlorolock, and same with warrior's 51 RB, why dont you ever mention about them?
    Comments:
    - I would hardly consider what I'm doing "whining".
    - While RB is certainly featuring prominently in the Warrior metagame, we aren't seeing a whole lot of 51 RB builds. Furthermore, it's not really the survivability that's encouraging Warriors to run RB - but the non-physical damage. RB really does not have "it all" in the same manner that Assassin does.
    - There are a pretty substantial number of viable mage PVP builds - chlorodom, dom, pyro, pyrodom, SC, chlrolock, lock, chloro, etc.

    I don't think any other soul has so overwhelmingly taken over its class as Assassin.

    I agree that slip away is too good, just like Lingering Wound, AOE fear, or Planar Blade of Warriors. Yes, it is going to get nerfed in next patch, no more dmg immunity with slip away, it will be just another re-opener.
    No more damage immunity doesn't imply that you are going to be unstealthed in that 3 seconds. It just means you take damage. So while it's a nerf, its really a pretty small nerf (unless you loldie from GTAOE/PBAOE while slipping away).

    I totally disagree about high sustained dmg part of Sin. 51 Sin basically relies on burst dmg (1st 10 seconds after opening) to take down the target. After that, if he/she is still stuck in the fight+ cannot re-open, his/her dmg is just so-so.
    While I know what you're saying, I can't help but disgaree. While I have reservations about the thread and testing method used, I'm going to cite it anyway: http://forums.riftgame.com/public-te...ark-tests.html.

    That seems to be fairly high sustained DPS, unless you're claiming that he's offloading 10-20k DPS for the first 10 seconds of the fight?

    The play style of sin is good for 1v1 in open world pvp, which is only good for annoying people right now. In WF, camping a spot (since sin cannot fight well in a big fight) = afk 80% of time = no contribution to your team.
    So, on the subject of open world PVP: I'm going to have to say that if open world PVP just "annoys people" and is "no good", then so is WFs. Neither one have any substantial impact on your target, and both provide favor/prestige to the victor. Arguably, open world PVP is far more meaningful because you can cost your enemy plat, the rewards per kill are higher, and it frequently happens while doing your PVP dailies.

    On the subject of camping a spot because you don't do well in a big fight:
    - I have to ask: why are you not doing well in a big fight? Your answer to this is obvious, so I'll go ahead and provide it for you: because you can't make use of your stealth, your most powerful weapon and best survival talent.
    - Why are you camping one spot if you know that you're doing nothing for your team? You can say that's where you're most effective but we both know that's you deluding yourself - you just said you're doing nothing for the team, whereas dying you at least serve as a damage soak for more 'important' members of your team.
    - You say that Assassins don't do well in large fights... but really, neither do any of the other Rogue souls. Even if they did have competitive DPS to Assassin, we'd be looking at "I can survive a bit longer when 10 people target me" vs "10 people can't even target me until I open up and try to kill the target of my choice".

    Again: high burst DPS, high DPS, high target selection, and high survivability... Assassin should not have it all.

    -Liang

  12. #57
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    thats the whole point of it, its far to easy to toss up any kind of aoe and expose that rogue who is still far from being out of range and in a safe place to hide and heal, or to com back and try again, removing the small, few second immunity makes slip away nearly non functional in pvp (i guess it's ok if ur soloing stuff and pull too much to drop aggro) just as all the changes to DR way back when killed the true "stunlock" kills (break free abilities were always an option, thanks all you non pvp capable QQ'ers...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaros View Post
    This guy claimed his Chlorolock was balanced in another thread even though a rank 8 Rogue gets rolled by a Fresh Rank 6 Geared Mage on Test Server.
    Again, you claimed your rogue was rank 8 on the test server, posted a video of it, with you losing to a Rank 8 mage, Even though we can clearly look at your HP LVL and determine either you removed large portions of your gear for the video, OR you're not Rank 8.

    So either way you're dishonest and cannot be trusted with anything you say on this forum.
    Xsorus - Rank 8 Mage/Server Seastone/Guardian/Guild - Desolate

  14. #59
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    Liang stealth does not = damage mitigation. That is a hilarious argument to make and I can see right through why you would make it. You are over emphasizing positives and applying them all around trying to make it sound like we are not that bad off.

    Your agenda is showing.

    The sheer amount of your posts, the fact that you are arguing with anyone and everyone who has an opinion different from yours it is becoming more and more obvious.
    Last edited by Wargawd; 09-21-2011 at 04:00 PM.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liang Nuren View Post
    Comments:
    - I would hardly consider what I'm doing "whining".
    - While RB is certainly featuring prominently in the Warrior metagame, we aren't seeing a whole lot of 51 RB builds. Furthermore, it's not really the survivability that's encouraging Warriors to run RB - but the non-physical damage. RB really does not have "it all" in the same manner that Assassin does.
    - There are a pretty substantial number of viable mage PVP builds - chlorodom, dom, pyro, pyrodom, SC, chlrolock, lock, chloro, etc.

    I don't think any other soul has so overwhelmingly taken over its class as Assassin.
    And most all have either chloro or dom in them.

    RB has taken over the warrior calling though. When I walk into PVP I don't see warriors, I see sword and board RB's. They have nice sustained DPS, awesome survivability via block, and heals via trinkets that heal on block. If anything, they are the ones that have it all.

    Also, you see 51 sins because the 51 point talent for that soul is actually worth getting.

    No more damage immunity doesn't imply that you are going to be unstealthed in that 3 seconds. It just means you take damage. So while it's a nerf, its really a pretty small nerf (unless you loldie from GTAOE/PBAOE while slipping away).
    I bet you'd be surprised how often that would happen post patch. I suspect many a QQ thread from sins getting owned when they use slip away.

    While I know what you're saying, I can't help but disgaree. While I have reservations about the thread and testing method used, I'm going to cite it anyway: http://forums.riftgame.com/public-te...ark-tests.html.

    That seems to be fairly high sustained DPS, unless you're claiming that he's offloading 10-20k DPS for the first 10 seconds of the fight?
    Testing is being done in PVE gear with the PVE crystal. I shouldn't have to say what would happen if you went into PVP with that build/gear.

    On the subject of camping a spot because you don't do well in a big fight:
    - I have to ask: why are you not doing well in a big fight? Your answer to this is obvious, so I'll go ahead and provide it for you: because you can't make use of your stealth, your most powerful weapon and best survival talent.
    - Why are you camping one spot if you know that you're doing nothing for your team? You can say that's where you're most effective but we both know that's you deluding yourself - you just said you're doing nothing for the team, whereas dying you at least serve as a damage soak for more 'important' members of your team.
    - You say that Assassins don't do well in large fights... but really, neither do any of the other Rogue souls. Even if they did have competitive DPS to Assassin, we'd be looking at "I can survive a bit longer when 10 people target me" vs "10 people can't even target me until I open up and try to kill the target of my choice".
    NB does fairly decently in large fights because it has the defensive cooldowns to tank incoming damage while dishing out it's own. Assassins don't. They have single target damage and really no way to mitigate any incoming damage outside of Slip Away, which as you have said, is getting nerfed. So no more immunity to mitigate damage.

    Again: high burst DPS, high DPS, high target selection, and high survivability... Assassin should not have it all.

    -Liang
    It does not have it all, plain and simple.
    Last edited by Dagurasu; 09-21-2011 at 04:25 PM.

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