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Thread: Rogue Tank ~ Estrode ~ 15988 Dmg -20% from new talent = 12790

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    Plane Touched jeffadkins51's Avatar
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    Default Rogue Tank ~ Estrode ~ 15988 Dmg -20% from new talent = 12790

    Ok so my guild has been giving me all of the rogue tanking gear out of HK in hopes that 1.5 fixes us and I can tank something again. I currently have 4 pieces of HK tanking gear, and the rest of my slots are the BiS pre-hammerknell. For ****s and giggles I got as buffed as I could pre-combat and dove in on Estrode. Her normal attack did 15,988 damage to me.

    So now we look at 1.5 changes. We gain a maximum of 20% overall damage resistance, and a bunch of threat related stuff.

    15,988 * 0.80 = 12790 damage

    So after 1.5 changes take effect, in theory, I would be taking 12790 damage aproximately from normal hits.

    @ Trion. Please go test this and check it out, I know you folks can give yourself 99999999 hp or god mode or something. Please check on PTS with current changes and see how hard she hits you... 20% damage reduction is not enough, we will still be completely unable to tank in HK unless more changes are made.
    Last edited by jeffadkins51; 09-19-2011 at 12:05 AM.
    When reading this post, let it be known, it was meant to be heard in a non-threatening, non-demanding way. Thank you.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffadkins51 View Post
    Ok so my guild has been giving me all of the rogue tanking gear out of HK in hopes that 1.5 fixes us and I can tank something again. I currently have 4 pieces of HK tanking gear, and the rest of my slots are the BiS pre-hammerknell. For ****s and giggles I got as buffed as I could pre-combat and dove in on Estrode. Her normal attack did 15,988 damage to me.

    So now we look at 1.5 changes. We gain a maximum of 20% overall damage resistance, and a bunch of threat related stuff.

    15,988 * 0.80 = 12790 damage

    So after 1.5 changes take effect, in theory, I would be taking 12790 damage aproximately from normal hits.

    @ Trion. Please go test this and check it out, I know you folks can give yourself 99999999 hp or god mode or something. Please check on PTS with current changes and see how hard she hits you... 20% damage reduction is not enough, we will still be completely unable to tank in HK unless more changes are made.

    Now I'm not the rogue tanking expert by any means ,but I believe its 5% with 20% (with 20k armor).

    Rift guard should also be adding more mitigation.

    Those numbers still seem a bit high. You say 4 pieces of HK gear? Which pieces? How much toughness do you have? What is your armor?
    Last edited by Zyzyx; 09-19-2011 at 12:11 AM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

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    lgw
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    If I do understand the new talent correctly, you gain up to 5% per 1k armor if you fully max it, hence you should indeed get 20% at any halfway serious gearlevel at 50.

    The OP just has his numbers slightly wrong, as mitigation is additive.
    Assuming max mitigation spec (51 RS, 8 Rng), you get 53% with Rift Guard and everything - before regular armor/resist. This would increase to 73%.
    Hence: 15,988 / (1 - 0.53) * (1 - 0.73) = 15,988 / 0.47 * 0.27 = 9,184
    Not perfect, but probably more in line with what Wars are eating, considering she's a very heavy hitter. On the posivite side we do have significantly more HP than Wars, and our absortion is not based on blocking rng - consistent damage makes easily healing.

    PS: Somebody with more RS theorycrafting experience feel free to correct me...
    Last edited by lgw; 09-19-2011 at 12:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyzyx View Post
    Now I'm not the rogue tanking expert by any means ,but I believe its 5% with 20% (with 20k armor).

    Rift guard should also be adding more mitigation.

    Those numbers still seem a bit high. You say 4 pieces of HK gear? Which pieces? How much toughness do you have? What is your armor?
    HK Pieces = Helm, Shoulders, Gloves, Boots.
    Toughness off the top of my head is like 240, so way over the toughness cap.
    And yes rift guard will help, but goodluck getting it up when you get 1 shotted.

    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    If I do understand the new talent correctly, you gain up to 5% per 1k armor if you fully max it, hence you should indeed get 20% at any halfway serious gearlevel at 50.

    The OP just has his numbers slightly wrong, as mitigation is additive.
    Assuming max mitigation spec (51 RS, 8 Rng), you get 53% with Rift Guard and everything - before regular armor/resist. This would increase to 73%.
    Hence: 15,988 / (1 - 0.53) * (1 - 0.73) = 15,988 / 0.47 * 0.27 = 9,184
    Not perfect, but probably more in line with what Wars are eating, considering she's a very heavy hitter. On the posivite side we do have significantly more HP than Wars, and our absortion is not based on blocking rng - consistent damage makes easily healing.

    PS: Somebody with more RS theorycrafting experience feel free to correct me...
    The problem being that you can't get rift guard up because she 1 shots you. Even after patch 12790 on normal attacks? It will be nearly impossible to get the initial buffs up like rift guard.

    I think that 20% is a step in the right direction, but perhaps if trion raised the cap from 20 to 30%
    If the cap were 30% the for the most part only rogue tanks in HK would be getting that high, most rogue tanks would never get near 30% so you wouldn't have to worry about it breaking T1/T2 dungeons.
    When reading this post, let it be known, it was meant to be heard in a non-threatening, non-demanding way. Thank you.

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    lgw
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    Again, I'm very sure your numbers are wrong, because mitigation is additive, not multiplicative. Please actually read what other poeple are posting. Then...
    1) Have your healer give you a shield pre-buff. Same as for any other tank.
    2) Work on your pull rotation... Splinter -> Quick -> RG -> Shadow Stalk.
    3) If anything else fails, just throw your 30% reduct before pulling and go to town.

    30% total reduct would probably way to strong, as numbers would work out for 5.8k / hit. Pretty meager for a HK hardhitting boss, that is 90% tank & spank and can be done with 5-6 full healers babysitting the tank.
    Last edited by lgw; 09-19-2011 at 12:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    Again, I'm very sure your numbers are wrong, because mitigation is additive, not multiplicative. Please actually read what other poeple are posting. Then...
    1) Have your healer give you a shield pre-buff. Same as for any other tank.
    2) Work on your pull rotation... Splinter -> Quick -> RG -> Shadow Stalk.
    3) If anything else fails, just throw your 30% reduct before pulling and go to town.

    30% total reduct would probably way to strong, as numbers would work out for 5.8k / hit. Pretty meager for a HK hardhitting boss, that is 90% tank & spank and can be done with 5-6 full healers babysitting the tank.
    Perhaps even in your rudeness you are right, I obviously have no clue what I'm talking about because you said I should start with Splinter -> Quick and I have no clue what either of those skills are...
    When reading this post, let it be known, it was meant to be heard in a non-threatening, non-demanding way. Thank you.

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    lgw
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    You repeated the same numbers again, which I just explained were most likely not how the game works. How am I supposed to think you actually read my post ?
    Hence why I directly call that out, because a conversation without you reading what I actually write is... pretty pointless. Feel free to call that rude.

    To answer your question...
    Splinter Shot and Quick Shot are Ranger skills. If you're not running Ranger for max mitigation while tanking HK bosses, please see you class trainer ASAP and fix that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    You repeated the same numbers again, which I just explained were most likely not how the game works. How am I supposed to think you actually read my post ?
    Hence why I directly call that out, because a conversation without you reading what I actually write is... pretty pointless. Feel free to call that rude.

    To answer your question...
    Splinter Shot and Quick Shot are Ranger skills. If you're not running Ranger for max mitigation while tanking HK bosses, please see you class trainer ASAP and fix that.
    Everyone I've ever theory crafted with has ruled out ranger as a viable 3rd soul. It seems very tempting but quit simply losing a flat 10% dodge, reprisal, strike back, and side steps is just too much to trade off.

    And yes I read your post.
    When reading this post, let it be known, it was meant to be heard in a non-threatening, non-demanding way. Thank you.

    ~Akylios Down 12/13/11~ ~Akylios Down in 2nd raid group 2/11/2012~

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    lgw
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    Then your theorycraft is wrong, plain and simple. Considering you lacked at least an effective 11-12% reduction on your 16k hit, and maybe some more (was RG up and stuff ?), your numbers certainly are skewed.
    Raid boss tanking is about maximum EH (effektive health). You could have 90% dodge, and you'd still be a bad tank if a boss could two-shot you for it.

    Guess why Warrior tanks are using 51 VK / 9 Pala / 6 WL for the very most fights in HK ? Because it's huge EH, with a nice bunch of CDs and good aggro / utility (Spotter's Orders).
    The one other spec they use when mitigation is a factor ? 25 Pala / 21 Reaver / 20 VK for anti-magic... slightly more EH, also a bit less average incoming damage - just soo much less utility (no SO) and almost no CDs. Hence they avoid it as they can...
    Last edited by lgw; 09-19-2011 at 12:51 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    Then your theorycraft is wrong, plain and simple. Considering you lacked at least an effective 11-12% reduction on your 16k hit, and maybe some more (was RG up and stuff ?), your numbers certainly are skewed.
    Raid boss tanking is about maximum EH (effektive health). You could have 90% dodge, and you'd still be a bad tank if a boss could two-shot you for it.

    Guess why Warrior tanks are using 51 VK / 9 Pala / 6 WL for the very most fights in HK ? Because it's huge EH, with a nice bunch of CDs and good aggro / utility (Spotter's Orders).
    The one other spec they use when mitigation is a factor ? 25 Pala / 21 Reaver / 20 VK for anti-magic... slightly more EH, also a bit less average incoming damage - just soo much less utility (no SO) and almost no CDs. Hence they avoid it as they can...
    I suppose for HK it might be necessary, we did this theorycrafting for GSB and RoS before HK came out because it's well known that rogues can't tank HK right now so none of us have really tried. I suppose that using ranger + the 20% might make it viable, would need more testing though and I don't think my guild wants to go wipe to estrode a bunch of times next week so that I can further test this theory.
    When reading this post, let it be known, it was meant to be heard in a non-threatening, non-demanding way. Thank you.

    ~Akylios Down 12/13/11~ ~Akylios Down in 2nd raid group 2/11/2012~

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    I know its a bother to convince 20 people to "lose" a raid night, but as you can copy your char on pts, try to actually do a hk run on pts to check directly the changes and not only by theorycrafting?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruizo View Post
    I know its a bother to convince 20 people to "lose" a raid night, but as you can copy your char on pts, try to actually do a hk run on pts to check directly the changes and not only by theorycrafting?
    Well that definitely isn't going to happen to be honest, but hey maybe my math is way off and the 20% will be enough, I guess we'll have to wait for the patch to go live and find out ^^;
    When reading this post, let it be known, it was meant to be heard in a non-threatening, non-demanding way. Thank you.

    ~Akylios Down 12/13/11~ ~Akylios Down in 2nd raid group 2/11/2012~

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    sometimes you discover that what tooltips say and what the skills actually do (often because they synergize with other skills in some strange way or because they are just bugged) isnt the same thing.
    most of the time this is a bad thing, but sometime you get lucky.
    Once known as Nix-Zero


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    I'm just curious as to which build you were using that didn't have Ranger?

    I went with a 7 Ranger, 51 Riftstalker, 8 Bladedancer. Max mitigation would have been a 8 7 switch between ranger and bladedancer. Lose a point in strikeback probably.

    Anyway, you need to go hug your healers. I couldn't survive w/o splinter/quick opening.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigolbitties View Post
    I'm just curious as to which build you were using that didn't have Ranger?

    I went with a 7 Ranger, 51 Riftstalker, 8 Bladedancer. Max mitigation would have been a 8 7 switch between ranger and bladedancer. Lose a point in strikeback probably.

    Anyway, you need to go hug your healers. I couldn't survive w/o splinter/quick opening.
    I've always gone with blade dancer / rift stalker / bard

    it's a 1.2 spec to be honest, i took 3 months off from rift and just came back, haven't played with the spec since i've heard it's impossible for rogues to tank in hk *shrug* maybe the build isn't optimal in 1.4, it was the build to have in 1.2 tho

    also note from the original post that i wasn't legitimately trying to create a build to tank hk or anything, as i said just for ****s and giggles i tried it once to see what would happen. once 1.5 comes out i'll spec into a legit tanking build and give it a shot
    Last edited by jeffadkins51; 09-19-2011 at 03:32 AM.
    When reading this post, let it be known, it was meant to be heard in a non-threatening, non-demanding way. Thank you.

    ~Akylios Down 12/13/11~ ~Akylios Down in 2nd raid group 2/11/2012~

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