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Thread: Rogue Tank ~ Estrode ~ 15988 Dmg -20% from new talent = 12790

  1. #46
    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebuke View Post
    And just how do you propose activating an ability that requires combo points without pulling?
    generate combo points on something then use finisher > pull

    Theres a bunch of trash before estrode.
    Last edited by Zyzyx; 09-19-2011 at 08:20 AM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

  2. #47
    Plane Touched
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    why should a 51 tank class have to duel or pull trash before a boss fight so they can live through the first 10 seconds. Poor design imo.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Widoe View Post
    why should a 51 tank class have to duel or pull trash before a boss fight so they can live through the first 10 seconds. Poor design imo.
    Warriors have to do the same thing, build pacts and attack points before a fight.

  4. #49
    Plane Walker Phantom Scony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocks View Post
    Warriors have to do the same thing, build pacts and attack points before a fight.
    Attack points don't decay.
    Void Knight builds pacts by getting healed that last 45 seconds.

    Doesn't compare. Sorrs.
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  5. #50
    Plane Walker Kryptyx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Temko Firewing View Post
    if "Way head" means 2% compared to a specced warrior, then ye, we are >.>. Went ahead and tested this with my guild on greenscale. (we have him on farm, so easy test)

    Both myeslf (Full T3 Tank gear, no relics) and the Warrior (Full T3 Tank gear) went in and tested damage. we had the same 2 people healing us both times.

    after the (intended) wipe with the rogue tank (me) with greenscale at 5% we went ahead and did it with the warrior and downed greenscale.

    we then compared parsers... suffice to say, the rogue, even on T1 Content, in similar gear on a boss that was always considered the "Rogue's" domein, we take 25% more damage over the duration of the entire fight.

    in hammerknel, i take DOUBLE the damage he does. now, this is a test between a "magical" fight and a melee fight, and in both the warrior comes out 25% to 50% ahead of the rogue.

    to go and taut my own horn, i've been told i'm one of hte best rogue tanks many healers have seen in from quite a few healers, but when compared to the warrior - they all agree "you are great, but **** that dude just doens't take damage". (and we can replace him for any of the 3 other warr tanks we have, similar results within 2-5%)

    that tells me we need 30% more mitgiation. and not all of it physical.
    Basically this... I mean if you actually look at at the magical damage comparisons between a warrior and rogue in similar end-game gear you will notice the warrior still coming out on top.
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  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocks View Post
    Warriors have to do the same thing, build pacts and attack points before a fight.
    VK can build his pacts without pulling or starting the encounter , RS can't put up his shield without pulling or starting the encounter which is ok by me , but VK looks more like exploit or bug which should not be allowed or should be fixed is not enough they have the highest armor they can also avoid to get hited harder at encounter start until they put up their pacts , or why not make RS the same
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  7. #52
    Ascendant Liang Nuren's Avatar
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    All I know is that as someone that primarily plays a Cleric/Healer I'd love to see Rogue tanks a bit less squishy on their first pull. Once they get going its not toooooo bad most of the time...

    -Liang

  8. #53
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    Estrode is impossible to tank with a rogue without purifiers, which are more or less impossible to use on that fight.. unless you want the raid to die at least. I tanked her awhile back when I had only one or two pieces of HK tank gear, and she was hitting me fully self buffed for 7-9k. With the new talent, that would go down to roughly 6.3-8.2k? Thanks to the changes with rift guard, she would technically be tankable so long as our shield is up.. at least until she starts using abilities. If she applies spotters to the tank, that's another 6k damage every hit. Furthermore, if she has Justicar, she uses a move that hits our cleric tank for 14-17k (yeah, he gets 1 shot if it isn't blocked) and it's pure physical damage. I really, REALLY don't think she's a possibility for rogue tanks right now.

    Similarly, Jornaru/Akylios hit for 7-9k even with purifiers if a rogue is tanking (I tried it and got 2 shot with buffs up). He, too, is untankable right now so we're forced to be on add duty.

    With the new buff however, Sicaron may become tankable. With the new talent and change to rift guard, his breath won't instantly eat through our shield and the damage will be much more in line with how much a warrior or cleric take. The last time I attempted tanking him, I was taking ticks of damage for roughly 4-4.5k. With the new talent (assuming you have at least 8k armor), that would go down by at least 13-15% resulting in 3.4-3.8k ticks which is roughly the same amount a warrior takes when he DOESN'T block. If they block, they just take zero damage. Technically, we can tank him with the upcoming patch.

    On a side note, I have tanked EVERY other boss in Hammerknell with little to no problems at all. The patch will only make it easier still.

  9. #54
    Plane Walker Kryptyx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grid View Post
    Estrode is impossible to tank with a rogue without purifiers, which are more or less impossible to use on that fight.. unless you want the raid to die at least. I tanked her awhile back when I had only one or two pieces of HK tank gear, and she was hitting me fully self buffed for 7-9k. With the new talent, that would go down to roughly 6.3-8.2k? Thanks to the changes with rift guard, she would technically be tankable so long as our shield is up.. at least until she starts using abilities. If she applies spotters to the tank, that's another 6k damage every hit. Furthermore, if she has Justicar, she uses a move that hits our cleric tank for 14-17k (yeah, he gets 1 shot if it isn't blocked) and it's pure physical damage. I really, REALLY don't think she's a possibility for rogue tanks right now.

    Similarly, Jornaru/Akylios hit for 7-9k even with purifiers if a rogue is tanking (I tried it and got 2 shot with buffs up). He, too, is untankable right now so we're forced to be on add duty.

    With the new buff however, Sicaron may become tankable. With the new talent and change to rift guard, his breath won't instantly eat through our shield and the damage will be much more in line with how much a warrior or cleric take. The last time I attempted tanking him, I was taking ticks of damage for roughly 4-4.5k. With the new talent (assuming you have at least 8k armor), that would go down by at least 13-15% resulting in 3.4-3.8k ticks which is roughly the same amount a warrior takes when he DOESN'T block. If they block, they just take zero damage. Technically, we can tank him with the upcoming patch.

    On a side note, I have tanked EVERY other boss in Hammerknell with little to no problems at all. The patch will only make it easier still.
    I commend you and your raid for tanking in HK in its current form, but it still does not change the fact that it is not viable. I mean sure we could do it, and put all our healers through hell for the duration of the fight but why bother when Warriors can do it so much easier. In some cases you can even drop a healer and pick up extra DPS.
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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kryptyx View Post
    I commend you and your raid for tanking in HK in its current form, but it still does not change the fact that it is not viable. I mean sure we could do it, and put all our healers through hell for the duration of the fight but why bother when Warriors can do it so much easier. In some cases you can even drop a healer and pick up extra DPS.
    This.

    It isn't about, "Can we do the boss with some luck and badass healerz? Sure!"

    It's about any raid leader or guild master taking a Warrior in blues over any Riftstalker, for any fight, in any situation.

    I'm convinced the Riftstalkers here who tank a lot of these fights don't quite understand the big-picture. We're harder to keep alive than any other Tank, and extra stress increases chances of failure. Sure, we CAN do it (sometimes), but as a raid leader you don't take a 1 in 10 chance over a 1 in 3.

    That's the issue. Tanking/Healing with Riftstalker is considerably more difficult than any other Healer/Tank combo.
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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebuke View Post
    And just how do you propose activating an ability that requires combo points without pulling?
    It seems people forget about Sabo. You can just go sabo and preload your CP and switch back to tank spec. Now you can use RG just as you're about to pull the boss. Granted, doing this for trash would be annoying (and unnecessary).

    You do not lose your combo points on the boss even if you change specs.

    Edit: I would still love some additional damage reduction though. Not a fan of avoidance tanking, although it's nice for AoE/trash with all the misses flying up on the screen.
    Last edited by Adastra; 09-19-2011 at 09:44 AM.

  12. #57
    Ascendant Liang Nuren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adastra View Post
    It seems people forget about Sabo. You can just go sabo and preload your CP and switch back to tank spec. Now you can use RG just as you're about to pull the boss. Granted, doing this for trash would be annoying (and unnecessary).

    You do not lose your combo points on the boss even if you change specs.

    Edit: I would still love some additional damage reduction though. Not a fan of avoidance tanking, although it's nice for AoE/trash with all the misses flying up on the screen.
    That... is brilliant. I am totally tucking that tip away for use next time I've got a squishie Rogue tank. Thanks!

    -Liang

  13. #58
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    in summation, the buff is nowhere near 20%. some people were saying our mitigation might be able to handle hk with the 4 piece synergy crystal and 4 pieces of plaque armor.... from hk (what?).

    as for initial pull, if its a boss i usually pop scatter the shadows to get everything up. so that way everything is up before the hk boss 2 shots me, but up to that point, i feel that it is really on the dps. i mean you successfully tanked the boss for AT LEAST 5 seconds. if they killed it faster, youd be able to tank it np. unfortunately with the defer death change, you used to be able to tank anything for AT LEAST 13 seconds, but now that is all changed, which has really made it hard for the dps.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adastra View Post
    It seems people forget about Sabo. You can just go sabo and preload your CP and switch back to tank spec. Now you can use RG just as you're about to pull the boss. Granted, doing this for trash would be annoying (and unnecessary).

    You do not lose your combo points on the boss even if you change specs.

    Edit: I would still love some additional damage reduction though. Not a fan of avoidance tanking, although it's nice for AoE/trash with all the misses flying up on the screen.
    Something tells me this would annoy raid leaders, leading them further into the arms of VK Tanks.

    Should we really have to do this? That's not "gameplay mechanics", that's oversight.
    Last edited by Phantom Scony; 09-19-2011 at 09:53 AM.
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  15. #60
    Plane Walker Kryptyx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adastra View Post
    It seems people forget about Sabo. You can just go sabo and preload your CP and switch back to tank spec. Now you can use RG just as you're about to pull the boss. Granted, doing this for trash would be annoying (and unnecessary).

    You do not lose your combo points on the boss even if you change specs.

    Edit: I would still love some additional damage reduction though. Not a fan of avoidance tanking, although it's nice for AoE/trash with all the misses flying up on the screen.
    It's quicker (and safer) to just duel or use ranged abilities and pop a small RG to help you survive the initial hits. Murdantix is a good example where you can't pre-load 5 charges due to his aggro range. Duel 5 cp RG and pull, it will auto break the duel. Although I prefer just using ranged abilities personally.
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