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Thread: 6months in, still no hope for a competitive single target dps spec for raid clerics?

  1. #46
    RIFT Guide Writer Sebb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devicus View Post

    I agree, clerics need an ST DPS buff. I also feel they need -icar nerfed. DoL is the issue, move it up the tree, or weaken it, or lower it's SP coefficient, I don't really care. It's literally the best aoe spec in the game. 11 points in justicar>any cleric aoe spec. This probably needs a slight fix too. Perhaps move it up the tree quite away, but give any action a chance to stack convictions for people deep (like... 20 maybe 30) into icar. Then you'll get some interesting healing hybrids. Then you can safely buff their ST DPS trees without breaking anything that already exists.
    I pretty much agree with thIs, but raid composition needs to be thought of. Right now two support healers can cover AOE healing. Nerfing DOL changes that to 3.

    What if DOL was moved to 21-25 PTs and it's strength increased by a significant portion? This would make a lot of hybrid specs not be OP, while providing a big boon to cleric tanks. Then followup with boost to 51 pt abilities.
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  2. #47
    Ascendant titansgrip's Avatar
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    It was like 3 months ago I was like, "Guys. 1 Archon. 19 Clerics. We can't lose."

    Pretty sure competitive ST DPS from any of the 3 DPS cleric souls can be worked so that more than half of them are running 11 point Justicar and 4 whatever. Would need only 2 pure healers with 5 /icars.

    Pretty sure they would outpace in healing any amount of damage current content could toss out. Even the two cleric tanks would be passively and actively healing.

    The only way I see it work is if you move the Justicar healing abilities above 15-22 point investment. Because right now most cleric DPS souls excel @ 51 points and yet can still pick up most /icar abilities.
    Last edited by titansgrip; 09-16-2011 at 09:04 AM.

  3. #48
    Prophet of Telara Havors's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gradient View Post
    I see a lot of responses protecting the status quo because people see it as personally beneficial as it is currently. That's to be expected as more people are not clerics than are clerics, and if clerics can't compete on dps except on gimmick fights some people see it as a personal win for them, even if it's a team lose for the raid management/effectiveness.

    A dps warrior can't turn into a tank mid-fight so there is no reason for them to have an artificially gimped dps ceiling.
    A dps rogue can't turn into a bard mid-fight so there is no reason for them to have an artificially gimped dps ceiling.
    A dps mage can't turn into a chloro or archon mid-fight so there is no reason for them to have an artificially gimped dps ceiling.
    A dps cleric can't turn into a healer mid-fight so there is no reason for them to have an artificially gimped dps ceiling.

    The issue is not should clerics be able to dps, the issue is why, 6months in, are clerics still unable to do dps that's equally valuable against dps checks.
    Thats fuzzy logic that. A warrior cant turn into a healer at anytime whatsoever! So why should a cleric be able to turn in dps? They can already heal/tank/support (and if your honest their dps isnt actually all too shoddy).

    When warriors get a support, healing and ranged damage soul then you can moan about clerics not being competitive dps. Until then people should play the class they chose and stop ****ing moaning! They cant have everything or there would be no point in having classes.
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  4. #49
    Prophet of Telara Havors's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilmari View Post
    Warriors are best in tanking and dpsing. Clerics are only good in singletarget healing, so they've only a half good role, since grouphealing goes to chloros.
    Warriors can ONLY tank and dps. Clerics are awesome healers, raid or single depending on spec... they can tank very well, they can support, and they can dps in melee or ranged. And its the dps is not as mad as these cry babies keep saying.

    I play cleric and warrior and so i can have a change in play style and roles. I way as well delete the warrior if the cleric can dps as good as it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaine View Post
    I'm a warrior and cleric.

    I'll be fine with giving a competitive ST dps spec to a cleric the moment

    1) warriors and rogues get a competitive healing spec
    2) warriors get a competitive support spec
    3) mages get a competitive tanking spec.

    Until then apples and oranges best describe the scenario.
    Then why do rogues have a viable DPS spec, the best support spec, a viable healing spec (1600+ HPS on AoE fights is no joke), and a viable tanking spec (outside of HK, of course, it is an issue there)?

    Oh wait, did I just demonstrate that rogues are more versatile and more competitive than clerics?

    Nope, I didn't mention running specs. I didn't mention assassins dominating open world PvP (not group, you know what I mean). I didn't mention the highest scaling AoE damage in the game (matron + rain of arrows, LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL). I didn't mention a lot of extra awesome **** rogues get.

    But they're getting BUFFED this patch. And you have the gall to say that because clerics can heal and can tank (nowhere near as well as warriors, nor rogues, btw), that we shouldn't be able to provide competitive DPS? I love how absurdly wrong the logic in this thread is.

    Chloros are competitive with us for healing, they have 1 healing soul. They are the second best support class in the game, but they only have 1 support soul. They are competitive DPS, too. And they can also tank prince. Strange. Versatility, viability...

    Mages and rogues by the very logic presented in this thread are massively overpowered presently and should be nerfed into oblivion. Mages shouldn't be able to heal or shouldn't be able to tank any fights. Rogues shouldn't be able to DPS or shouldn't be able to tank. That's only fair, right? That about sums up the rank stupidity in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Havors View Post
    Warriors can ONLY tank and dps. Clerics are awesome healers, raid or single depending on spec... they can tank very well, they can support, and they can dps in melee or ranged. And its the dps is not as mad as these cry babies keep saying.

    I play cleric and warrior and so i can have a change in play style and roles. I way as well delete the warrior if the cleric can dps as good as it.
    Healing != support. Try again.
    Last edited by jMerliN; 09-16-2011 at 10:53 AM.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by titansgrip View Post
    It was like 3 months ago I was like, "Guys. 1 Archon. 19 Clerics. We can't lose."

    Pretty sure competitive ST DPS from any of the 3 DPS cleric souls can be worked so that more than half of them are running 11 point Justicar and 4 whatever. Would need only 2 pure healers with 5 /icars.

    Pretty sure they would outpace in healing any amount of damage current content could toss out. Even the two cleric tanks would be passively and actively healing.

    The only way I see it work is if you move the Justicar healing abilities above 15-22 point investment. Because right now most cleric DPS souls excel @ 51 points and yet can still pick up most /icar abilities.
    Cabalist does all death damage. No convictions. That's out.

    Shaman does not deal any life damage either. No Convictions. That's out.

    Druid has 1 ability that does life damage every 12 seconds. That's out.

    Inquisitor has Corporal Punishment which drops if you use GCDs doing anything healing. That's out.

    The DPS loss for using justicar is massive just on time (GCDs) spent actually using it's abilities.
    Then there's the fact that you wasted 11 points which could have gone into 5% crit chance, 20% crit damage, 5% spell power, etc.

    No idea why you and many others hold onto blatantly incorrect ideas.

  7. #52
    Ascendant titansgrip's Avatar
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    I was being intentionally cheeky.

    Oh internet.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by titansgrip View Post
    I was being intentionally cheeky.

    Oh internet.
    DeFranco, is that you?

  9. #54
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    just change your ACT to report HPS as DPS. problem solved.

  10. #55
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    Here is the rub that has yet to be voice.

    Typical raid setup:
    2 tanks
    1 archon
    1 bard
    5 healers (2st, 3 raid)
    11 dps.

    For progression raiding that means:
    Warriors have 13 possible spots (tank + dps)
    Rogues have 14 possible spots (tank + dps + bard) *12 if you want to consider rogues aren't great for current progression
    Mages have 15 possible spots (dps + archon + raid healing)
    Clerics have 7 possible spots (healing + tank)

    That is why clerics need a somewhat competitive dps spec. Clerics barely have enough available spots for equal representation. Once again, not asking for top ST dps, but the typical 500-600 from the top is too much. Also all for placing DoL further up in justicar.

  11. #56
    RIFT Guide Writer Sebb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stimuz View Post
    just change your ACT to report HPS as DPS. problem solved.
    LoL nice.

    I changed my ACT to show blocked damage as heals. Wow did our clerics get pissed!
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  12. #57
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    I think the ones saying that we shouldn't have competitive single target damage aren't getting something very important.

    Each calling has 8 souls. Each soul has a "purpose" we assign that purpose by the use of the abilities in that soul. If a soul isn't functioning well, the class group calls out for a fix. The problem is that we have 2 melee damage souls that aren't doing competitive melee damage. It's fine if you want to assert that cleric should not be doing melee dps - but we still have 2 soul slots that need to be made viable to some purpose. We could just as happily use a magic tank and a warlord-esque tank soul instead of 2 melee damage calling souls. But as it stands, we have 2 melee damage calling souls, and they are not functioning anywhere near as well as they should be.

    Furthermore, if an entire soul is balanced around 10-14 points of another soul, the calling asks for change (see saboteur and bladedancer) as they want the soul to be competitive with more than just one pairing.

    Clerics aren't asking for something extra to be given to them. They just want 8 viable souls. The devs gave us single target damage souls and we want them to be competitive for use (either pve or pvp). The soul itself, not the 10-14 points only available from a single off-soul to make it competitive. And doing 25% less dps than an equally geared person of another calling whose soul configuration is also optimized for single target damage is not competitive. No one is asking for us to top any charts.

    If you want to lobby that clerics shouldn't have single target damaging souls, then please, lobby for our souls to get changed to allow for more tanking souls instead. But clerics, and every calling, deserves 8 viable souls. I am sure clerics would love having magic tank and buff tank souls.

    Personally, I play a warrior as well as a cleric. In warfronts, I tell people, I would switch to my healing spec if I had one when no one has a plus. A warrior field medic and a rogue alchemist would be awesome if they could make them work. I have absolutely nothing against those two callings having healing. Likely the reason they never went further than bard is the issue of limitless mana - the fast restoration of energy could make them unbalanced healers, and rogues would need to build combo points against friendly targets (or perhaps not).

    Also the argument that people would only ever bring clerics to raids is an unjustified conclusion. The more overall effectiveness each calling brings allows for more people to play what they enjoy playing, and friends will be more able to play with friends. But trying to gear 20 clerics is going to be far more counterproductive than trying to gear 5 of each class by an astronomical margin. Not everyone will roll clerics because they prefer the playstyle of the other classes. That, and even after getting what we've asked for, warrior single target specs will still outdamage ours. Just not by such a huge margin.

  13. #58
    Sword of Telara Gradient's Avatar
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    8 warriors in raid is actually often an optimal setup, 8 clerics in raid is basically a bad setup because 4-6 of those clerics will be doing severely subpar dps.

    Cabalists do useless ST-dps, completely out of proportion with every calling that has aoe strength when they go ST.

    Inquisitors does uncompetitive dps.

    Druids does uncompetitive dps.

    Shaman does uncompetitive dps.

    Even if you leave cabalist as an oddity that can ONLY aoe, the other 3 need fixing, since beta.
    Last edited by Gradient; 09-17-2011 at 12:29 AM.

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  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valanceer View Post
    Cabalist does all death damage. No convictions. That's out.
    Someone here has never played Cabicar in an aoe encounter. Reparation and the occasional DoL via SH. You should try it out..its amusing to be top DPS on some encounters and still provide quite a bit of healing.

    By the way, all these encounters are not even remotely close to being tuned to where you cant afford to use clerics to dps, and they've all been nerfed since then...stop using that excuse please everyone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mif5k View Post
    Here is the rub that has yet to be voice.

    Typical raid setup:
    2 tanks
    1 archon
    1 bard
    5 healers (2st, 3 raid)
    11 dps.

    For progression raiding that means:
    Warriors have 13 possible spots (tank + dps)
    Rogues have 14 possible spots (tank + dps + bard) *12 if you want to consider rogues aren't great for current progression
    Mages have 15 possible spots (dps + archon + raid healing)
    Clerics have 7 possible spots (healing + tank)

    That is why clerics need a somewhat competitive dps spec. Clerics barely have enough available spots for equal representation. Once again, not asking for top ST dps, but the typical 500-600 from the top is too much. Also all for placing DoL further up in justicar.
    thats nice so you want to nerf DoL just to fix raiding? But on the other hand you cry foul for nerf because of pvp?

    What do you think are more people raiding or are more people play pve without raiding?
    Nerfing pve to fix raiding is as stupid to nerf pve to fix pvp!!

    You raiders are not the only pve players in rift!
    Last edited by zahmi; 09-17-2011 at 01:30 AM.

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