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Thread: Rogue = OP now (unbalanced) on PTR -- Dev's please address

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liang Nuren View Post
    Just to be clear, he's hitting for 2000+ with each of those Eradicates. Healing prevented on a target that's taking damage is every bit as good as damage done in most WFs. Yes, it doesn't show up on the charts but not all things good for the team do show up on charts (like Archon buffs, for example).

    -Liang
    pff, his probalby dispeling useless buffs that were doing over healing and self buffs when he could just bursted down other target or u gona say all WF are full of wardens?
    cuz most wf i go i dont even have a healer unless i bring one with my party and when i have its mostly clhorolocks
    I quited Rift, the lack of end game pvp+Gear based game+AoE zerg fest on many WF just kill the way i like pvp. (am p7,5)
    Small Skirmishes all over the place
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liang Nuren View Post
    The entire reason they're stacking HOTs on him is because he's taking damage -- enough to warrant enough attention to heal. Seriously, the target of target ******** is ****ing overpowered as hell from a Cleric perspective. I've seen people 100% shut my Warden down to the point that I just go DPS because I'm not getting ANYTHING done as a healer.

    Call it theorycraft if you want - I don't give a ****. All I know is that Eradicate spam is suggested as THE thing to do for fresh 50s for a reason.

    -Liang
    It's more reasonable than those marksmen hitting you for 4500 deadeyes I supposed. So a rogue plays as a sin, you pick warden and he can't kill anyone you heal. He switches to MM and you stay warden and you can't heal people he's eradicating. This is obviously a travesty right?

    It's not theorycrafting, there are ways to get around heals being shut down by eradicate. Some people do in fact play with healing souls other than the cookie cutter warden in PvP.
    DK of The Fast and the Fairyous: Tokyo Rift

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sneakier View Post
    Actualy, a sentinel is a dedicated healer that helps the party to its best.



    Offensive Sharpshooter=/= Ranged Debuffer and this is not a thread about theorycraft



    Nice theory, what happens when they just decide to kill you? Cuz in theory u can be nuking "30k" each eradicate but thats not going to happen.
    U GONA DIE CUZ u cant kill then, at ptr, u can (at live u can also but its way harder compared to PTR wich makes many MM rogues go eradicate spamm to be usefull)

    i bet IF u have a rogue u play like this:
    herp derp, did 2400 damage by removing a shield>target gest rebuffed> gogili +2400 damage whille he continues to smash ur team

    dead target>debuffed target
    AND most of the times, u can get the kill without the need for Eradicate spam, try deadeye shot, i heard it hits "4,5k"

    But if ur happy with you theorycraft, keep doin it bro, if makes u happy
    Not really. The only thing that can hurt you and get you destroyed is (oddly enough) cliffs that you're standing on. OP riftwalk puts warriors at an advantage if there's any terrain. And fear through pillars you're trying to run around.
    It's not theorycraft, it's just how it plays out in reality. Perhaps you're getting defensive because the way to play was outlined for you and you're upset you hadn't figured it out? If not, no clue what you're talking about.
    Last edited by Valanceer; 09-14-2011 at 01:56 PM.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valanceer View Post
    Not really. The only thing that can hurt you and get you destroyed is (oddly enough) cliffs that you're standing on. OP riftwalk puts warriors at an advantage if there's any terrain. And fear through pillars you're trying to run around.
    And after this small discussion we had we just agreed that the OP is a QQer that need to l2p

    Cuz lets face it, rogues have to spam eradicate to be usefull wich means they real damage at live is BAD wich means that the damage boost at 1.5 is a way to balance their damage and their survival boost a way to rogues survive a bit more since there are a new threat on the horizon but without plate
    I quited Rift, the lack of end game pvp+Gear based game+AoE zerg fest on many WF just kill the way i like pvp. (am p7,5)
    Small Skirmishes all over the place
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delolith View Post
    Wait a minute. I don't think that anyone argued that rogues did not need a DPS buff on PvE. However, the ridiculousness of this patch was that it did not solve the PvE problems of many DPS rogue souls and they created a PvP monster called extremely durable insane invisible killer....aka heavy Assa/NB. So I do not see why people do not agree with the fact that specific rogue combination is broken in PvP.

    The defensive CDs are useless in PvE, but with this magnitude of damage they break PvP.
    The main problem was that healers would much rather prefer a rogue attacking them than a warrior. Lingering wounds was lightyears ahead of our PvP heal debuffs (other than the aforementioned eradicate), coupled with higher warrior burst damage making them more of a threat in PvP.

    Buffing sins self healing wasn't the best way to go IMO. More frontload damage, slip away on a death/KB or whatever--that would be effective. If sins are get-in get-out type killers it blows my mind why we have 20+ second bleeds and rely so much on DoTs right now. Including more self healing into heavy NB builds would have been the better route, its playstyle is paragonish and we could make up for our lower hp/armor possibly by more healing. The 10% leech you get from other players may be enough to keep you up, along with the 50% heal CD, but its still all theory to me until it goes live. There is still a lot of time for changes right now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ponder View Post
    Prior to 1.5, Rogue's needed a slight (5-10%ish) buff in PVP (only) DPS -- assuming survivability remained the same (i.e. no nerfing of Slip Away/etc).

    The changes that have been made are way out of whack -- and you are simply creating a new significantly OP class.

    You have increased their survivability significantly -- forget playing subtlely or striking from the distance as the key advantage, now just steam role, AND utilize stealth to go in or go out as needed. Way too powerful. Vamp healing -- really? Self healing -- really? They still having survival CDs, CC, healing debuffs -- all in a single spec?

    But, it doesn't stop there -- you have also added significant damage increases across multiple abilities? And after Slip Away, a target's DOTs still tick along their merry way?

    Rogue's don't even need stealth now -- they just charge you like a warrior, high dps your face, and if they want to Slip Away, can still have the dots tick a good percentage of your health (of course, you remain in combat due to that). But, they still have stealth? I'm not suggesting taking away stealth -- I'm suggesting look at all the perks and come to a reality check that it is unbalanced.

    The balance pendulum has swung far too much into Roguedom. This simply further unbalances the Rogue class relative to other classes, and unfortunately only encourages people to look towards other games (like SW:TOR).

    Please, Trion -- review the combat logs on PTR -- review the 1x1s, the 2x2s, the 2x1s, the Warfronts, the random world encounters -- and come back to reality. The Rogue tweaks are way overdone. Class of the month is a terrible way to play a game. It only continually pisses off 3/4 of the population, to please 1/4.
    Actually the PvP concerns is what got me to cancel my sub. This game is trying to satisfy two camps using the same soul. Terrible concept. Since the PvP people are by far the most outspoken on the forums, this game is going to be tailored for PvP. I don't care about PvP.

    Either make the abilities work different for PvE and PvP, or create entirely new PvP souls for each calling.

    I'm still holding out hope that Bladedancers will truly be awesome in melee. But all they've done is give them advantages in PvP. Frankly any kind of escape or snare/root ability is a waste in PvE souls. I use these very rarely in PvE.

    I'm in full HK gear, 49 DPS weapons, doing around 800 DPS on 3 test dummies (AE DPS). That should be 2K at least. Single target is worse, around 480. We need more layered damage, or more burst damage.

    But even better I want to see new and unique abilities. Like a 1 hour buff that gives them a % to strike all enemies within melee range, for weapon +dmg. Or another 1 hour buff that gives them a % to strike the enemy multiple times (Flurry). (Only one of those buffs can be used at one time) And a weapon enchantment that has a chance of adding a debuff on enemies, making them susceptible to an extra attack. If successful, the extra attack would be a reactive like Reprisal, but if it crits, it activates two other reactives (can only activate one), one that stuns the opponent for 4 seconds, and the other adds a bleed.

    Bladedancers should be the best at melee DPS. Once you reach 51 soul points. There should be stronger 51 soul point builds as well. Most of the 51 soul point abilities are lackluster. 50% crit chance? That doesn't significantly boost DPS, I've seen the parses. Now making it 50% crit chance AND crit dmg, that's different.

    "The Blade Dancer's mastery of edged weapons allows them to unleash devastating close combat attacks in quick succession." Let's make the soul live up to that. As it is, ranged roles like sab or marksman, are the ones dealing out "devastating" attacks.
    Last edited by Altira; 09-14-2011 at 02:07 PM.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordfishy View Post
    It's more reasonable than those marksmen hitting you for 4500 deadeyes I supposed. So a rogue plays as a sin, you pick warden and he can't kill anyone you heal. He switches to MM and you stay warden and you can't heal people he's eradicating. This is obviously a travesty right?

    It's not theorycrafting, there are ways to get around heals being shut down by eradicate. Some people do in fact play with healing souls other than the cookie cutter warden in PvP.
    Wardens are obviously out because of Eradicate spam (in our scenario), Sentinels have a lot of trouble with push back+interrupts, and lolPurifiers are getting their shields purged off, inferior heals, and similar pushback+interrupt issues. This leaves you with some form of Senticar.

    The best Senticar specs I've seen run 12 Templar for Reinforce the Flock. You'll have passable AOE healing with Healing Breath and Touch the Light+Healing Invocation available as your emergency/single target heals. In general, you're looking at dramatically lower single target heal performance (maybe a quarter to a third) and no self heals to speak of. So then the Marksman simply stops spamming Eradicate and starts dealing damage.

    Anyway, my point here is that Eradicate absolutely deals massive amounts of damage and is overwhelmingly the single most powerful warfront ability in any Rogue soul. Complaining that it does no damage and doesn't provide combo points is.... pathetic.

    Besides, according to the last two posts nobody even brings Clerics (or Wardens) to the field anymore.

    -Liang

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liang Nuren View Post
    Wardens are obviously out because of Eradicate spam (in our scenario), Sentinels have a lot of trouble with push back+interrupts, and lolPurifiers are getting their shields purged off, inferior heals, and similar pushback+interrupt issues. This leaves you with some form of Senticar.

    The best Senticar specs I've seen run 12 Templar for Reinforce the Flock. You'll have passable AOE healing with Healing Breath and Touch the Light+Healing Invocation available as your emergency/single target heals. In general, you're looking at dramatically lower single target heal performance (maybe a quarter to a third) and no self heals to speak of. So then the Marksman simply stops spamming Eradicate and starts dealing damage.

    Anyway, my point here is that Eradicate absolutely deals massive amounts of damage and is overwhelmingly the single most powerful warfront ability in any Rogue soul. Complaining that it does no damage and doesn't provide combo points is.... pathetic.

    Besides, according to the last two posts nobody even brings Clerics (or Wardens) to the field anymore.

    -Liang
    Liar, of course they do i see shamans all the time and sentinels and lolcabas and inquisitors that sometimes feel worse then a warlock

    But when they appear i cant do "30k" nukes:<

    i liked when i saw a purifier stop using buffs and just go pure heal when he saw me, he also started to LoS me like mad... totaly owned my OPdicate, i even ran of combat to go NB
    Last edited by Sneakier; 09-14-2011 at 02:19 PM.
    I quited Rift, the lack of end game pvp+Gear based game+AoE zerg fest on many WF just kill the way i like pvp. (am p7,5)
    Small Skirmishes all over the place
    Currently am playing SC2 and Team Fotress 2, if you like skill based balanced games, try then out, btw Team Fotress 2 is now FREE!

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liang Nuren View Post
    Wardens are obviously out because of Eradicate spam (in our scenario), Sentinels have a lot of trouble with push back+interrupts, and lolPurifiers are getting their shields purged off, inferior heals, and similar pushback+interrupt issues. This leaves you with some form of Senticar.

    The best Senticar specs I've seen run 12 Templar for Reinforce the Flock. You'll have passable AOE healing with Healing Breath and Touch the Light+Healing Invocation available as your emergency/single target heals. In general, you're looking at dramatically lower single target heal performance (maybe a quarter to a third) and no self heals to speak of. So then the Marksman simply stops spamming Eradicate and starts dealing damage.

    Anyway, my point here is that Eradicate absolutely deals massive amounts of damage and is overwhelmingly the single most powerful warfront ability in any Rogue soul. Complaining that it does no damage and doesn't provide combo points is.... pathetic.

    Besides, according to the last two posts nobody even brings Clerics (or Wardens) to the field anymore.

    -Liang
    Yeah, we don't use clerics as healers since they just don't function at all on a basic level in PvP.
    Inquisitor with overload in templar works decent. Cabalist works decent. Just not on roaming maps like Codex/Library/Scion/Whitefall (all of them except black garden) because this game has melee spell pushback which makes it impossible for them fight back against anything.
    Thankfully there's still bards for usable healers. Chloro/locks work when stacked. Mages without serious warlock or chloro do not function.
    Last edited by Valanceer; 09-14-2011 at 02:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valanceer View Post
    Yeah, we don't use clerics as healers since they just don't function at all on a basic level in PvP.
    Inquisitor with overload in templar works decent. Cabalist works decent. Just not on roaming maps like Codex/Library/Scion/Whitefall (all of them except black garden) because this game has melee spell pushback which makes it impossible for them fight back against anything.
    Thankfully there's still bards for usable healers. Chloro/locks work when stacked. Mages without serious warlock or chloro do not function.
    Now I'm all for informing ignorant/******ed/stupid/metagaming Rogues how powerful Eradicate is... and sure, Chloros are seemingly better than -icars. But saying Clerics are not functional healers is just as ignorant/******ed/stupid/metagaming.

    -Liang

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delolith View Post
    Wait a minute. I don't think that anyone argued that rogues did not need a DPS buff on PvE. However, the ridiculousness of this patch was that it did not solve the PvE problems of many DPS rogue souls and they created a PvP monster called extremely durable insane invisible killer....aka heavy Assa/NB. So I do not see why people do not agree with the fact that specific rogue combination is broken in PvP.

    The defensive CDs are useless in PvE, but with this magnitude of damage they break PvP.
    According to Hoko, who has been testing the new Rogue changes, he's still beating the build you are referring to on his Warrior. He does claim that the margin of the win is smaller than on live. People probably don't agree with your view because it is wrong...
    Last edited by Calo; 09-14-2011 at 02:38 PM.

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    ROGUES are op waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. to say that they only need 5-10% damage and in pvp only is fantastically ignorant. Enjoy getting *****.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valanceer View Post
    Pretty much.
    With how god-awful most rogue players are I figured they'd have to poop Colombian mercenary contracts and shoot 1-shotting lasers out of their nipples for the typical rogue player to have a chance.

    Not surprised how it's turning out to be that way. I mean, on live right now a rogue with no valor can basically target dummy any P8 warrior down without taking damage.
    Rogues seemed "god-awful" because of how underpowered they were. The patch is a good change. rank 8 wars don't lose to rogues on live unless the warrior turns with his keyboard and clicks (not surprising since most warriors do).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valanceer View Post
    Yeah, we don't use clerics as healers since they just don't function at all on a basic level in PvP.
    Inquisitor with overload in templar works decent. Cabalist works decent. Just not on roaming maps like Codex/Library/Scion/Whitefall (all of them except black garden) because this game has melee spell pushback which makes it impossible for them fight back against anything.
    Thankfully there's still bards for usable healers. Chloro/locks work when stacked. Mages without serious warlock or chloro do not function.
    As a cleric that does both shaman and warden in wf's, I'd argue that warden healing is fine.

    Yeah, sure a few souls can purge on cd, and marksman can spam it, but I haven't experienced a whole lot of that. Most people just try to dps their way through it, find a squishier target, or assist a team mate.

    When someone is focus fired by several people, with the exception of survival cooldowns, they should not live. If they don't, it's not because healing is broken.

    The reason I enjoy shaman? It's fun to pretend being a warrior charging around and whacking stuff. When there are too many healers, an extra just is useless, so I whack stuff. That's right, I go shaman when there are too many healers in the group, further evidence that other clerics don't feel the same way you do.



    As far as people speculating about fell blades and marksman, vampiric munitions do the same thing as fell blades. No need to go into nightblade for that. It does proc on fanout. If you go in with another aoe'er or two, you can wreak some serious havoc spamming fanout to apply the 50% healing debuff. The point wouldn't be your damage so much as theirs being made more effective due to less healing. Again, vampiric munitions 20% proc to each target hit from fan out, or at least for this push on the pts, and multiple can proc on the same fanout.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowburn View Post
    Rogues seemed "god-awful" because of how underpowered they were. The patch is a good change. rank 8 wars don't lose to rogues on live unless the warrior turns with his keyboard and clicks (not surprising since most warriors do).
    Pretty much this. Everyone was used to seeing a rogue drop out of stealth and attack them and laugh as the rogue scratched them. Now the rouge can kill them. OMG a rogue can actually kill people. basically warriors seem to be saying.

    "I can't kill clerics, mages can kill me, I could rofl stomp rogues. What fun is PvP unless there is a calling I can rofl stomp?"

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