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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Cleric 1.4 Discussion

  1. #421
    Rift Chaser Bobopedic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolfinna View Post
    Sigh. I'm getting tired of saying this, but L2ClericTank. Physical mitigation is "fine" in much the same way that warriors are fine: Justicars have more armor, more HP, more Dodge, more parry, and are at the same softcaps for block as warriors. So, "We’re generally happy with the current state of Justicars and are continuing to monitor a number of smaller issues involving them". Like aggro. Which has been over-adjusted to the pint of ohcrapthatsalotofaggro.

    As for dealing with magic damage, make a resistance sigil/engine, just like every tank should after your first couple weeks of raid content. After that, stack the cleric's single greatest magic-mitigation stat: Endurance. And then get a second/third/fourth chestpiece with the appropriate elemental runes. And then make a spec for the fight. Do you know how many sigils and chestpieces a warrior tank should have? 4: one for each raid element, and one for physical. Do you know how many tanking specs a good warrior should have: at least 4: trash physical bosses, magical bosses, and AT LEAST one for whatever gimmick boss shows up. Clerics are no different.

    "Oh, but woe is me! I only have one tanking soul!" You're right. And you have 38/44 points in it plus seven more over in Shaman. That leaves you a third soul and 15-22 points to customize it for each fight. Expect physical damage? Pack for more armor. Expect magic? Come armed with more shields. Clerics have two unique methods of magical mitigation: passive healing and shields. Ever look at the Cleric's Synergy Crystal? Just Defense. It's kinda a big deal. And Shields aren't affected by healing reductions (LGS, anyone? Matron?). And the passive healing? That's, what, like 50HPS from Salvation? If a boss is knocking you around for 1000 DPS of magic damage, that's basically +30 resistance to each element that you're getting. At the very least. And more if you include raid buffs.

    No, it's not quite the +50 resistance of "Guardian Phase", but ya know, it's loads better than the 0 mitigation Justicars are ALWAYS complaining about. And it scales better. With raid buffs, you're up to something like 50% magic resistance. Plus you still have your 1.2k and 2.2k shields for the magic spikes. Cleric tanks are not warrior tanks. They're a bit more proactive. But in the end, they're not much worse off, and in many ways, they're better.
    how i math?????
    Hiphop - Cleric
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    of <Dominance>, Faemist

  2. #422
    Rift Chaser Bobopedic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolfinna View Post
    As for dealing with magic damage, make a resistance sigil/engine, just like every tank should after your first couple weeks of raid content. After that, stack the cleric's single greatest magic-mitigation stat: Endurance. And then get a second/third/fourth chestpiece with the appropriate elemental runes. And then make a spec for the fight. Do you know how many sigils and chestpieces a warrior tank should have? 4: one for each raid element, and one for physical. Do you know how many tanking specs a good warrior should have: at least 4: trash physical bosses, magical bosses, and AT LEAST one for whatever gimmick boss shows up. Clerics are no different.

    "Oh, but woe is me! I only have one tanking soul!" You're right. And you have 38/44 points in it plus seven more over in Shaman. That leaves you a third soul and 15-22 points to customize it for each fight. Expect physical damage? Pack for more armor.
    No, it's not quite the +50 resistance of "Guardian Phase", but ya know, it's loads better than the 0 mitigation Justicars are ALWAYS complaining about. And it scales better. With raid buffs, you're up to something like 50% magic resistance. Plus you still have your 1.2k and 2.2k shields for the magic spikes. Cleric tanks are not warrior tanks. They're a bit more proactive. But in the end, they're not much worse off, and in many ways, they're better.
    i'm going to preface this with a ROFL.

    I don't understand forums. Even when I already go over a point several times that it's beaten into the ground, people still repeat them like nothing was ever said. Yeah? Sigils? good call bro. Too bad both warriors and clerics can make the same sigil. And you still think clerics are comparable magic tanks to warriors? I seriously don't understand people like you.

    The 50 resistance of guardian phase is not why rogues mitigation so much damage...It's rift guard. Do you even know anything about the classes you're talking about? You have got to be trolling


    Quote Originally Posted by Kolfinna View Post
    Expect magic? Come armed with more shields. Clerics have two unique methods of magical mitigation: passive healing and shields. Ever look at the Cleric's Synergy Crystal? Just Defense. It's kinda a big deal. And Shields aren't affected by healing reductions (LGS, anyone? Matron?). And the passive healing? That's, what, like 50HPS from Salvation? If a boss is knocking you around for 1000 DPS of magic damage, that's basically +30 resistance to each element that you're getting. At the very least. And more if you include raid buffs.
    wat
    Just defense is garbage. It blocks about 2k damage and doesn't scale. The amount of damage it blocks in one minute is equal to the amount of magic warrior mitigate more than us after 2 spells. Oh, and by the way: Warriors and rogues have cooldowns too. And they're much better. Trying to suggest that our "cooldowns" make up for our lack of mitigation is completely grasping for straws.
    Are you seriously suggestion Salvation's self healing makes up for magic mitigation? You're seriously trolling me now.
    I take 2k more damage per spell? BAM! SELF HEAL FOR 40! YEAH!
    Last edited by Bobopedic; 07-31-2011 at 02:59 PM.
    Hiphop - Cleric
    Nasa - Warrior
    of <Dominance>, Faemist

  3. #423
    Plane Walker Treig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinbik View Post
    Hey guys, one more last minute Cleric note for 1.4 that will go up to PTS sometime in the near future:
    • Mien of Leadership - Increased the bonus to threat to 450%.
    Also, I just wanted to add that we are still looking at the Cleric Synergy Crystals. We'll be hotfixing any changes we need to make to the LIVE servers as necessary.
    Not to be too ungrateful, but way to "mail that one in" Zinbik...the community is talking and you're barely listening...bare minimum, no creativity.

    What does that make, post # 14? Nice.

  4. #424
    Plane Walker Treig's Avatar
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    I have quit tanking on my Justicar because the other tanks do it better and easier, and Friday i decided to un-sub. I have 69 days left on my 6 month founders plan to play out...maybe if things change for the better I'll reconsider...maybe not. I'm not whining "do this or I'll leave", instead I've chosen to leave unless Trion and Zinbik can convince me it's worth my time and money to stay.

    I'm also irritated about the Founders subscription discount plan being over-shadowed by summer pricing and giving me a 'free' copy of the game I already own...does nothing but irritate me. (not a Cleric topic - but part of my decision to depart).

  5. #425
    Plane Walker Kolfinna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobopedic View Post
    The 50 resistance of guardian phase is not why rogues mitigation so much damage...It's rift guard. Do you even know anything about the classes you're talking about? You have got to be trolling
    No, the Riftguard is the way Rogues mitigate 15% of all damage. It's thier version of Shield of Faith. I can see how you might be confused, but 15% of all incoming damage is 15% of all incoming damage. The only reason they appear to negate magic damage better because of that particular ability is that the negation comes from a shield, which means it happens before considering any debuffs the boss might've but on you. But, hey, good try. You made a semi-valid point there. Personally, I would've gone with "Exceptional Resiliance" and ""Phantom Blow" as to why they're better at tanking magic damage. But that's only, what, 12% more resistance, as compared to the 10% from 1.3 Thorvin's? Extend this out to secondary and tertiary souls, and you're up to a grand total of 31% passive mitigation for the Rogue and 28% passive mitigation for the Cleric. So, yeah. I am saying that biggest difference between these two styles of tanking is a constant stream of 60ish HPS as opposed to a passive +50 to all magic resistances. Other than that, and the fact that some Riftstalker passive resistance comes via shield, yeah, they're pretty gosh darned similar in how much they negate.

    And yes, the Warrior is likely the better of the three tanks for magic damage. I don't know warriors that well, I admit freely, but well-timed Singularities and Fusions of Flesh seem like the best abilities for any magic-heavy fight. Doesn't mean Clerics and Rogues can't tank 'em, too, if they know the mechanics.

    Just defense is garbage. It blocks about 2k damage and doesn't scale. The amount of damage it blocks in one minute is equal to the amount of magic warrior mitigate more than us after 2 spells. Oh, and by the way: Warriors and rogues have cooldowns too. And they're much better. Trying to suggest that our "cooldowns" make up for our lack of mitigation is completely grasping for straws.
    Are you seriously suggestion Salvation's self healing makes up for magic mitigation? You're seriously trolling me now.
    Much better? I wouldn't go that far. I mean, yes, Just Defense scaling would be nice (I'd say 20% max HP sounds about right), but lobbing 2200 off every spikey magic blast is quite enough to keep incoming damage in check. Add to that the larger HP pool of a cleric, and I'd say Just Defense is enough to counter most problems. And to call it a cooldown seems a bit unfair, since it has a 60 (50?) second cooldown. And for a magic fight, you have a 1200 Shield of the Ancestors to fill the gaps when it isn't up. When I think of Justicar CDs, I think Resplendent Embrace and Reprive, and both are quite useful (though the first is most useful if you know when to use it. )

    And really, Rogues only have the two CDs that work with incoming magic spikes. And scatter the shadows is impressive, don't get me wrong. But Planar Refuge, used before a burst, is the same as throwing up Just Defense, as far as I'm concerned, but with twice the CD.

    So, yes, I'm suggesting that Salvation does a pretty darned good job closing the mitigation gap on magic-heavy fights. No, I'm not saying "LOL CLERICS IS BEST MAGIC TANK" or any of that silliness, but excepting bosses I've not yet encountered, I've seen two raid bosses that are made significantly more difficult by having a cleric tank, and frankly, a few fights where cleric tanks are the best choice. And no fights thus far that simply can't be won with a cleric tank (though, admitedly, I'm only 3/10 for hammerknell at this writing. There may be some fights that simply demand Fusion of Flesh/Scatter the Shaddows later on.)

  6. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobopedic View Post
    First of all, it's physical damage. I'm aware physical damage is fine.

    Second of all...read my post in that thread? The warrior is clearly not specced for physical mitigation. 48% blocked attacks? Rofl. My t2 warrior has more block % than that with only ravenous strength up. He was specced to buff raid dps.

    It is out of context. GJ.
    Rogues have trouble tanking the first boss in HK. Clerics don't. Are rogues therefore worse tanks than clerics? You are such a little *****.

  7. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolfinna View Post
    Sigh. I'm getting tired of saying this, but L2ClericTank. Physical mitigation is "fine" in much the same way that warriors are fine: Justicars have more armor, more HP, more Dodge, more parry, and are at the same softcaps for block as warriors. So, "We’re generally happy with the current state of Justicars and are continuing to monitor a number of smaller issues involving them". Like aggro. Which has been over-adjusted to the pint of ohcrapthatsalotofaggro.

    As for dealing with magic damage, make a resistance sigil/engine, just like every tank should after your first couple weeks of raid content. After that, stack the cleric's single greatest magic-mitigation stat: Endurance. And then get a second/third/fourth chestpiece with the appropriate elemental runes. And then make a spec for the fight. Do you know how many sigils and chestpieces a warrior tank should have? 4: one for each raid element, and one for physical. Do you know how many tanking specs a good warrior should have: at least 4: trash physical bosses, magical bosses, and AT LEAST one for whatever gimmick boss shows up. Clerics are no different.

    "Oh, but woe is me! I only have one tanking soul!" You're right. And you have 38/44 points in it plus seven more over in Shaman. That leaves you a third soul and 15-22 points to customize it for each fight. Expect physical damage? Pack for more armor. Expect magic? Come armed with more shields. Clerics have two unique methods of magical mitigation: passive healing and shields. Ever look at the Cleric's Synergy Crystal? Just Defense. It's kinda a big deal. And Shields aren't affected by healing reductions (LGS, anyone? Matron?). And the passive healing? That's, what, like 50HPS from Salvation? If a boss is knocking you around for 1000 DPS of magic damage, that's basically +30 resistance to each element that you're getting. At the very least. And more if you include raid buffs.

    No, it's not quite the +50 resistance of "Guardian Phase", but ya know, it's loads better than the 0 mitigation Justicars are ALWAYS complaining about. And it scales better. With raid buffs, you're up to something like 50% magic resistance. Plus you still have your 1.2k and 2.2k shields for the magic spikes. Cleric tanks are not warrior tanks. They're a bit more proactive. But in the end, they're not much worse off, and in many ways, they're better.
    If you're going to post on a thread, you might as well read what people have posted before you instead of one or two things you diagree with.

  8. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by woopedazz View Post
    Rogues have trouble tanking the first boss in HK. Clerics don't. Are rogues therefore worse tanks than clerics? You are such a little *****.
    If your soul has an issue it doesn't mean other classes can't have theirs fixed as well. The game doesn't revolve around you or any one class.

    "You are such a little *****."

  9. #429
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    Trion, some of us clerics want to be raid viable... as in have the same suvivability and threat generation as warriors in raids... If there was a handful of bosses clerics excelled at compared to warriors and rogues, I would be happy. As it is, nobody really wants cleric tanks that much when you can have a warrior or rogue. I am glad to see the DPS changes, they are definitely needed. But if you're going to give each class the ability to do a role, please give each class the tools to do those roles equally well as each other, even if it requires more skill. Thanks

  10. #430
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolfinna View Post
    No, the Riftguard is the way Rogues mitigate 15% of all damage.
    So you admit then that you know nothing about rogue tanking. Look at Improved Rift Guard. They get 35% not 15%.

  11. #431
    Plane Walker Kolfinna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klaek View Post
    So you admit then that you know nothing about rogue tanking. Look at Improved Rift Guard. They get 35% not 15%.
    Not "nothing" per say, but yeah, that is a completely blundering oversight that negates just about everything I said. I'd prefer to say I know "next to nothing".

  12. #432
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klaek View Post
    So you admit then that you know nothing about rogue tanking. Look at Improved Rift Guard. They get 35% not 15%.
    Not trying to be nit picky, but it gives a total 37.5%. Also, they get another 12% from other skills for a total of 49.5% mitigate everything. And +50 to all magic type resists when in guardian phase. So rogues are over 50% magic mitigation even if they have no source machine/sigil.

    on another note:

    Taking into account if they built a sigil/source machine stacked with a single resist just like clerics are forced to, you could ball park full raid buff resists, give or take potions, around 75-80% magic mitigation. A cleric with the same will hit 48-53%.
    Last edited by Malbojia; 08-01-2011 at 12:23 AM.
    A little reading comprehension goes a long way.

  13. #433
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malbojia View Post
    Not trying to be nit picky, but it gives a total 37.5%. Also, they get another 12% from other skills for a total of 49.5% mitigate everything. And +50 to all magic type resists when in guardian phase. So rogues are over 50% magic mitigation even if they have no source machine/sigil.

    on another note:

    Taking into account if they built a sigil/source machine stacked with a single resist just like clerics are forced to, you could ball park full raid buff resists, give or take potions, around 75-80% magic mitigation. A cleric with the same will hit 48-53%.
    5 min timer

    The difference of taking 25-20% of the magic damage verses taking 53-47% of the magic damage. Oh look, more than double.
    A little reading comprehension goes a long way.

  14. #434
    Rift Chaser Bobopedic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malbojia View Post
    A little reading comprehension goes a long way.
    quoting relevant signature
    Hiphop - Cleric
    Nasa - Warrior
    of <Dominance>, Faemist

  15. #435
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    I haven't actually logged into PTR but I was wondering if anyone knows what the Syn Crystal stats for PVP gear are. I'm going to guess it might be a static +50 valor or something if Trion wants to be lazy and have it apply across all souls.

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