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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Cleric 1.4 Discussion

  1. #406
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    Justicars NEED a planar focus dedicated to each resist if they plan on tanking end game content. Warriors/rogues don't have to worry about that. Can you imagine a guild starting out in RoS or GSB with a cleric MT? they'd have to farm so many life and death raid rifts solely for that guy.
    You are not even remotely correct. I have been tanking GP (up to 3rd boss) and GSB (up to 2nd boss) since before I was even full T2 and have NO complete resist core nor the 27 resists to shoulders/chest, don't use the 40 resist vial, don't take 6 cabby for the 40 resist and I tank those just fine. Not one of my Guild's healers has a single pc of T1 raid gear, nor fdo any of our DPS as we are a small casual Guild. The only warrior in Guild we have that is = gear to mine can't even hack tanking Anrak and we have 3x Clerics all full T2 or close that are our Guild's MT's in all content.

    What you should have said is Justicars NEED a resist core/runes/vial to tank the FINAL boss in each raid (with possibly Plutonus in RoS also). And I don't know what shard you play on but on my shard it's stupid easy to pug RR's all day long by yourself to get the different resist cores built (I'm currently working on all 6, Death is the only one I'm 5/6 done).

    To the above poster that this guy trashed for your "logic" you are correct in the gear aspect. If Clerics are getting destroyed by magic bosses then build the correct gear set, i.e. full resist core, 27 resist to chest/shoulders, get the 40 resist vials made and change to a spec that's 6 Cabby instead of 6 Inq. Just because some Clerics don't want to have to spend the time farming for resist gear doesn't mean we're bad tanks, it means those Clerics are lazy. Trion has made it harder for us to tank magic dmg dealers and therefore you either **** and put out the effort to deal with that dmg or stop tanking.

  2. #407
    Rift Chaser Bobopedic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by delindsay View Post
    You are not even remotely correct. I have been tanking GP (up to 3rd boss) and GSB (up to 2nd boss)...
    read this. rest of your post irrelevant. good day, sir
    Hiphop - Cleric
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  3. #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by delindsay View Post
    To the above poster that this guy trashed for your "logic" you are correct in the gear aspect. If Clerics are getting destroyed by magic bosses then build the correct gear set, i.e. full resist core, 27 resist to chest/shoulders, get the 40 resist vials made and change to a spec that's 6 Cabby instead of 6 Inq. Just because some Clerics don't want to have to spend the time farming for resist gear doesn't mean we're bad tanks, it means those Clerics are lazy. Trion has made it harder for us to tank magic dmg dealers and therefore you either **** and put out the effort to deal with that dmg or stop tanking.
    So you think it's OK that a lazy warrior still outperforms a cleric that has taken all of that time to assemble resist-specific sources and extra sets of shoulders and chests? On top of that, the warriors can do every single one of those things too so they're still 50% ahead of us.

    I believe you're misunderstanding them. I think most of the complaints here aren't 'I don't want to farm resist gear' but instead 'I'm so gimped by abilities and talents that I have to farm resist gear to still be behind warriors and rogues who haven't even bothered to enchant their chest'. They're trying to point out that Trion has to either balance fights around cleric-level magic resist and make them too easy for other classes or balance fights around other class' magic resists and exclude comparably geared clerics.

  4. #409
    Rift Chaser Bobopedic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kassa View Post
    So you think it's OK that a lazy warrior still outperforms a cleric that has taken all of that time to assemble resist-specific sources and extra sets of shoulders and chests? On top of that, the warriors can do every single one of those things too so they're still 50% ahead of us.

    I believe you're misunderstanding them. I think most of the complaints here aren't 'I don't want to farm resist gear' but instead 'I'm so gimped by abilities and talents that I have to farm resist gear to still be behind warriors and rogues who haven't even bothered to enchant their chest'. They're trying to point out that Trion has to either balance fights around cleric-level magic resist and make them too easy for other classes or balance fights around other class' magic resists and exclude comparably geared clerics.
    ^

    i can farm a resist sigil and still take much more damage than a warrior. it's math. you can't argue against it.
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  5. #410
    RIFT Guide Writer Redcruxs's Avatar
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    how we compare to warrior tanks is irrelevant, just because we aren't the BEST tank doesn't mean we're useless.

    it makes me sick when our threat is increased by 50% and all people can do is cry and moan about how much cleric tanks suck


    be grateful we get to tank at all. most games cleric = healer ONLY
    Last edited by Redcruxs; 07-30-2011 at 09:44 PM.

  6. #411
    RIFT Guide Writer Redcruxs's Avatar
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    also, check this out from the cleric forums

    http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...mmerknell-yet/


    in this thread Radak claims that cleric tanks take less damage then equally geared warrior tanks in HK gear

    with this screenshot as proof:

    http://i.imgur.com/uBXc3.png

    maybe its out of context but still makes the whiners look like spoiled brats

  7. #412
    Champion of Telara Elric-merren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redcruxs View Post
    how we compare to warrior tanks is irrelevant, just because we aren't the BEST tank doesn't mean we're useless.

    it makes me sick when our threat is increased by 50% and all people can do is cry and moan about how much cleric tanks suck


    be grateful we get to tank at all. most games cleric = healer ONLY
    First off where in any post once more do we say we are useless or worthless? No where scrub since we say we are falling behind by too large a margin that we shouold not be falling behind by, also if aftr a 50% noost in threat and we are still seeing these issues normally shows we have remaining threat issues. We are not asking to be best (read the posts and actually comprehend what is being siad instead of being a spaz freaking out.) no one persiod asked to bead the threat generation of a tank or even being better in all areas of tanking over any tank excpt in our chosen tanking style. Also where does it say we suck in any of the posts hmmm? We say we are saying that we are viable but not a common choice to tank sicne we are lacking in afew areas that other tanks are not nearly as far behind in simular areas.

  8. #413
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    i can farm a resist sigil and still take much more damage than a warrior. it's math. you can't argue against it.
    You sir are correct it's math and you cant argue against it. Only you didn't do your math homework. In FULL resist gear a Cleric takes EXACTLY the same damage as a Rogue in zero resist gear. And since Rogues already have good magic mitigation how many do you see that actually build a resist core up? There isn't many if any on my shard. Rogues and warriors simply don't often build resists sets because "they don't need to" according to what I hear time and time again. So Clerics have to build resists sets, boo hoo, if you don't like it stop tanking. Until Trion gives us the ability to tank magic = Warrior/Rogue without that resist set then that's exactly what we have to do.

    Also lest we forget the HUGE nerf to physical mitigation Warriors just got hit with? As it sits with DR added to Block, Clerics officially take less damage from physical dmg bosses since Warriors can no longer remotely reach 80% Block chance. So Warrior = Cleric in gear, Cleric wins for Physical bosses, Warrior wins for Magic bosses. Clerics have always been stronger against Physical bosses than Rogues and weaker against Magic bosses.

  9. #414
    Plane Touched Tomaj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redcruxs View Post
    what are you guys? the worst cleric tanks in existence?

    our survivability was already increased to proper levels in the last patch now our threat is being brought up to par and you still say its not enough?

    L2clerictank noobs
    Yes, because I'm clearly able to get the snap threat that rogues and warriors are able to accomplish without the assistance of misdirects.

    That said, regarding all the resist stuff - my question, then, is why should clerics have to put in all that extra effort when rogues and warriors don't have to? Is being on par that much to ask? I may not be the best geared cleric tank ever, and we do have a good cleric tank in our guild (as opposed to tanking being my second offspec), but even so, that doesn't mean these issues magically cease to exist.

    To that end, if you're a cleric tank, because of the way threat works for cleric tanks (a good chunk of it coming from external healing), in something that isn't AoE heavy (i.e., little to no return on Reparation), a warrior tank can pull aggro going through a normal rotation. That sounds fair to me all right... not.

    Moreover, I'm not posting to say cleric tanks suck. I love cleric tanking. I even off-tanked the daily raid rift yesterday alongside another cleric tank MT. And did it again alongside a warrior MT later in the day. The difference between the two is not difficult to see. That cleric tanks perform does not mean that there are not issues that need to be fixed, which is what I think some people are blinding themselves to. Cleric tanks do well. This doesn't necessarily make them "fine" in comparison to the other tanks.

  10. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nehmud View Post
    Hm, so, how much of this game do we want to have as a PvP component? How much will this reduction impact mage and bard healing? How about warriors self-healing to full? Will that also be toned down?

    I also hope the crit cap is applied to all classes.

    I would rather tone everyone up if you ask me.
    i have even more concerns......

    Rogues anathema reduces healing effectiveness by 50%.......... So one rogue coming out of hide stunning you for 4 sec with a dps of roughly 1600+ per sec will either kill you on the spot, or in the case of pvp gear will bring you down to your knees. Heal that now.......

    We have been having enough problems so far with WFs premades full of rogues and warriors that make an unbeatable team..... rogues going in pairs to take flags... instantly killing people and warriors with only a few healers since they can instant full heal...... Do i have to mention their far more superior burst damage to a healer?

    Instead of nerfing abilities while boosting others (rogues for example) why don't you rework on the pvp part.

    Introduce a another spec slot specifically reserved for pvp only. Make some soul combinations and ability copmbination to have limitations in usage and their combining. Same way any pvp soul currently works....

    I mean rogues in hiding standing somewhere near a flag using that loooooong stun ability of theirs while not engaged in combat and not coming out of hide is really stupid already.......... They can chain cast it as its gcd time is too shot for pvp....

  11. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elric-merren View Post
    Wow would you like a new cap since your ego seems to have busted your old hat. Just because someone asks to have things adjusted or changed slightly or improved does not imply that they are a bad player. Alot of them actually would like to improve the feel or playstyle of tier characetr that they like so much to have spent time to come up with a change or improvement idea. So how about you keep your opinions of what kind of player or skills others have to yourself, mostly since they only matter to you if the other people are smart to just relise anyone they do not know well is not worth making thier opinion matter at all.

    I always liked the idea of a threat syphon that would transfer threat from the target of the justicar's rightous mandate back to him whne he is in the tanking mein, and then transfers threat to the person with rightous mandate on them while in the healing mien. THis could be activated by conviction at 15-20% per point of conviction used. This could also have a passive version that is always active but at a weaker level as stated above.

    In Vanguard Saga of Heroes there was a class that had the ability to REMOVE a threat percentage from the target, especially if that target had too much dps...... Sorcerors had to use a threat removal skill once so often cause they generated tons of threat through their dps

    Now for censure which honestly has afew nice things it could be used for instead of a damage buff that is consumed easily in most situations. One idea is that it grants us a threat buff for a short while after being used (though this is worthless now wiht the increase but if they wanted to reduce the threat bonus on our mien back but give us a way to generate more this would work.). THen is the idea of a melee range single target interrupt, though the cd on this strike would need to be increased to fit in better with the other interrupts (censure means a rebuke or show of disapproval).

    I always like the idea of a magic absorbing shield effect which is linked to our conviction system, as well as only protects against magic damage. THis ability could be only usable at 4 convictions so that it is not always available, but also could also deactivate our ability to generate conviction for a short period of time to act as a version of a cd kinda. My only issue with this idea is that it could make us more desired as a magic damage tank compared to rogues which is not right, and so it would need to be watched and tweeked alot.
    I loved this suggestion.....

  12. #417
    Rift Chaser Bobopedic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redcruxs View Post
    also, check this out from the cleric forums

    http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...mmerknell-yet/


    in this thread Radak claims that cleric tanks take less damage then equally geared warrior tanks in HK gear

    with this screenshot as proof:

    http://i.imgur.com/uBXc3.png

    maybe its out of context but still makes the whiners look like spoiled brats
    First of all, it's physical damage. I'm aware physical damage is fine.

    Second of all...read my post in that thread? The warrior is clearly not specced for physical mitigation. 48% blocked attacks? Rofl. My t2 warrior has more block % than that with only ravenous strength up. He was specced to buff raid dps.

    It is out of context. GJ.
    Last edited by Bobopedic; 07-31-2011 at 09:53 AM.
    Hiphop - Cleric
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  13. #418
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    So if anyone tried the cleric dps speccs on pts, will we be able to do as mutch as the other classes dps speccs now ?

  14. #419
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    No we won't but we're dealing way more than now, even with inqui.
    Dudu will still be our cookiecutter most likely.
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  15. #420
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    Sigh. I'm getting tired of saying this, but L2ClericTank. Physical mitigation is "fine" in much the same way that warriors are fine: Justicars have more armor, more HP, more Dodge, more parry, and are at the same softcaps for block as warriors. So, "We’re generally happy with the current state of Justicars and are continuing to monitor a number of smaller issues involving them". Like aggro. Which has been over-adjusted to the pint of ohcrapthatsalotofaggro.

    As for dealing with magic damage, make a resistance sigil/engine, just like every tank should after your first couple weeks of raid content. After that, stack the cleric's single greatest magic-mitigation stat: Endurance. And then get a second/third/fourth chestpiece with the appropriate elemental runes. And then make a spec for the fight. Do you know how many sigils and chestpieces a warrior tank should have? 4: one for each raid element, and one for physical. Do you know how many tanking specs a good warrior should have: at least 4: trash physical bosses, magical bosses, and AT LEAST one for whatever gimmick boss shows up. Clerics are no different.

    "Oh, but woe is me! I only have one tanking soul!" You're right. And you have 38/44 points in it plus seven more over in Shaman. That leaves you a third soul and 15-22 points to customize it for each fight. Expect physical damage? Pack for more armor. Expect magic? Come armed with more shields. Clerics have two unique methods of magical mitigation: passive healing and shields. Ever look at the Cleric's Synergy Crystal? Just Defense. It's kinda a big deal. And Shields aren't affected by healing reductions (LGS, anyone? Matron?). And the passive healing? That's, what, like 50HPS from Salvation? If a boss is knocking you around for 1000 DPS of magic damage, that's basically +30 resistance to each element that you're getting. At the very least. And more if you include raid buffs.

    No, it's not quite the +50 resistance of "Guardian Phase", but ya know, it's loads better than the 0 mitigation Justicars are ALWAYS complaining about. And it scales better. With raid buffs, you're up to something like 50% magic resistance. Plus you still have your 1.2k and 2.2k shields for the magic spikes. Cleric tanks are not warrior tanks. They're a bit more proactive. But in the end, they're not much worse off, and in many ways, they're better.

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