Rogue energy consumption suggestions.

[Taemek]

Ok, because alot of people seem to be of the understanding that our archtype is suppose to be a fast hitter, fast damage based archtype, I will ask this, at what point do they stop scaling our skills base damage to the point we become fast hitters, major damage and people QQ about dying in less then 2 seconds due ot our intial burst DPS being simply to big? Now that is from a PvP point of view.

On the other hand, how long will it be before we get adjusted in PvE due to being able to break 2k DPS in bursts on short term encounters because or base damage abilites are simply to high?

At some point, we effectively stop becoming a fast hitter, fast damage class and turn into a fast hitter major damage beast which nothing can stop in a 10 second period.

On another note, where should Dev's increase base damage of skills before they realize that building certain Hybrid spec's down the track becomes trivial yet again and we have reached a point that flavour of the month classes raise thier ugly little heads? Not only this, but Pure spec builds were suppose to be upgraded this patch also to be brought more in line with those high damage build hybrid spec's.

I for one don't want easy mode bestowed upon us due to getting looked at this patch and being underpowered.

Some of you may want it and in some cases it is clear to see, people want to see extremely large numbers popping out from peoples heads.

My suggestion is small fine tuning tweaks using Energy consumption as a means to increase DPS because anyone who plays a high end Rogue knows we run out too fast. 5 - 6 Skill uses in PvE and in PvP we get the intial burst DPS at the beginning which exhausts our Energy and if that doesn't work, run away and try again.

So what is my suggestion here?

Let's say for example our energy regen was increased by 2 energy per second for a total of 22 energy per second. That gives us a total of 120 energy per min. That is an extra 3 Punctures, 3 Dusk strikes, in essence it is simply half an extra rotation of someone's point building rotation or a full one every min depending on what skills you use to generate skill points.

You can get the exact same effect from a 3 - 4% energy cost redcuction to Soul Tree's that are obviously top heavy on energy consumption. Classes like Nightblade for example have no need for this change because thier Soul Tree is not to bad for energy consumption in regards tp DPS gained per energy combo point spent. Our energy regeneration stays the same in this aspect but because of the slight reduction in energy consumption, you get the ability to cast 2 or 3 more skills per min.

These suggestions are not game breaking changes, however the first change would be tricky to implement in regards to Nightblade due to them being ok atm, however, slight base damage reductions to thier class to offset such a change would still result in the same DPS they yeild right now, while the other 7 Soul Tree's in the Rogue archtype would benefit from it.

These changes also do not yeild *inifinite* energy pools if what people are saying is true and we are by design meant to be regulated to how much DPS we can do by our energy consumption and regeneration.

It simply addresses the issue with consistency, which is Rogues one main issue. Dev's can't just keep thumping on the base damage increments. At some point, even if it brings us upto spec on a over time consistant DPS point of view, our Burst damage will be murder.

[thedarktrade]

Very well put.

I'm still waiting to add my 2 cents for when the 50 merchants get added to the test shard so I can see the current changes, but I suspect the main issue of energy starvation will still outweigh the increases made.

[Telemachus]

Cut the energy drain cost of basic skills by half or give rogues 500 energy to start.

[Asidia]

Cut the energy drain cost of basic skills by half or give rogues 500 energy to start.

Sounds very underpowered. I suggest a 8999% increase of damage included.

:>

Good post though, energy consumption atm feels quite unpolished.

I would suggest removing 'Enduring brew' (WTF?) and replacing it with a passive reduction of energy by 5-10 OR making it a CD ability that decreases energy use by 50% for 20 seconds or something similar.

It's fairly high in the Assassin tree so it may not be good for any other soul combo. I was thinking of swapping it around with 'Poison Potency' or swapping it with 'Silent Footsteps'. That way it's still quite high in Assassin and not so easy to get but enough for a 51 point talent build.

I don't know. I can't balance games for jack.

[Godzillamax]

I'm at the point now where I can just cut and paste my responses to these threads as they keep cropping up since rogue issues never seem to get fixed.

Right now as a ranger/MM now most my attacks are instant cast (1 sec GCD) yet once I complete my first two rotations (maybe three if there is a chloro in the group) I become energy starved. So now instead of hitting an attack every second, I am maybe doing one attack every 1.25-1.5 seconds. If you look at rogue parses you see after the first 10 seconds or so of a fight their DPS drops and then plateaus as they are forced to wait to use an attack until they have sufficient energy regenerated. Compare this to a mage who is only limited by the time it takes to cast an actual spell. Sure a mage may have to contend with their mana bar eventually depleting, but most mages have abilities to regen mana, or they can just consume a mana pot for a quick boost. Warriors also have to contend with energy, but their attacks do significantly more damage to compensate for the energy starvation issue. Therefore the solution should be to simply increase rogue damage per hit across the board. Another solution to this problem could be to include attacks into the rogue rotation that have a cast time. So while you are spending 1.5-2.0 seconds casting an attack your energy bar has a chance to increase. These attacks exist in the game (e.g. Ranger Splinter Shot) but the problem is that their DPS is so poor that they end up being a DPS loss. To make this an effective solution would require a significant DPS boost to rogue attacks that have a cast time to make them beneficial to include in a rotation.

Lets look at a much simpler, and more realistic example. Your ability costs 30 energy, is a 1 sec GCD, and hits for 750. To make this easy lets say you have done your first 2 rotations and are now sitting at 10 energy. At 20 energy regen per second it will take 1 second to regen the 20 energy needed to have sufficient energy to do your attack again. You hit 30 energy and do your attack. Since your attack is on a 1 sec GCD, and since energy regens through the GCD, by the time your attack ends you are at 20 energy, 10 less than needed to do another attack. You now need to wait 0.5 seconds to do another attack and after such, are stuck in a cycle of needing to wait 1.5 seconds before you can do an attack.

Since your attack only hits for 750, you are producing 500 DPS. Lets say your finisher hits for 1,500. It will take you 1.5 seconds per combo point, or 7.5 seconds, to generate 5 combo points. At 500 damage per attack (per 1.5 second), plus the finisher (for arguments sake, lets assume it also is a 1 sec GCD and only costs 30 energy), it will take you 9 seconds to build 5 combo points and deliver a finisher. Your total damage would be 5,250 and your DPS would be 583 DPS.

Because of the energy regen issue, the rogue attacks (which are mostly on the 1 sec GCD) have in effect become the same as the warrior attacks (which are also on a 1.5 sec GCD) when measured as number of attacks per second. The difference is that warrior attacks hit much harder per attack (to compensate for being on a 1.5 sec GCD), benefit from the spike damage from a finisher once every 4.5 seconds (versus once every 7.5 seconds for the rogue), and because of the 1.5 seconds global cooldown and because many warrior attacks are not on the GCD, warriors are able to manage their energy more efficiently.

Because of the energy limitations rogues must deal with they have by default become watered down warriors who have weaker hits per every 1.5 seconds. I'm astounded no one at Trion has figured out this simple problem with their game design.

Your missing the point. When the energy regen rate normalizes those "fast hitting, low damage" attacks to be the same duration as the "slow hitting, big damage" attacks of a warrior or mage, then what is the outcome? The answer is that a warrior or mage is hitting every 1.5 seconds for X damage and a rogue is hitting every 1.5 seconds for 25% of X.

Speaking from a purely PvE position, and as a rogue who primarily plays as a ranger/MM, IMO rogue energy regen rates need to remain unchanged. But, many rogue attacks need their damage, or damage modifiers, increased and, most importantly, many rogue specs need viable longer cast duration attacks that can be worked into the rotations that allow pooling of energy. As a ranger right now you pretty much spam 3 attacks, all 1 sec GCDs (though you can only use them once every 1.5 seconds due to energy regen issues). If I could include a 1.5-2.0 second cast time attack into a rotation it would give me time to pool energy to then use on my 1 sec GCD attacks. Those longer duration attacks exist, but their damage or effect is so mediocre that they end up being DPS losses, not gains. Right now on live I'm better waiting 1.5 seconds and using Quick Shot (a 1 sec GCD ability), then waiting 1.5 seconds and doing another Quick Shot, than I am mixing in 1.5-2.0 second attacks (that would allow for energy regen) such as Splinter Shot because the damage of a Quick Shot over 1.5 seconds is better DPS than the damage + added energy regen from a 1.5-2.0 second Splinter Shot.

[Godzillamax]

I wanted to add, if you do a search for something like "Rogue Energy Issues Rift" you will find the same complaints and issues dating back to the game's beta stages. Apparently Trion things rogue energy mechanics are fine, regardless of what players have been saying for months since release, or months prior to release.

[Bostish]

On my bard I pretty much run Anthem of Ferver for the energy problem.

It's a shame that it's so high in the Bard tree that many souls would gimp themselves to get it. Maybe do some dummy testing with a bard in the group to really prove the difference even 10% would make?

[Godzillamax]

On my bard I pretty much run Anthem of Ferver for the energy problem.

It's a shame that it's so high in the Bard tree that many souls would gimp themselves to get it. Maybe do some dummy testing with a bard in the group to really prove the difference even 10% would make?

Anthem of Ferver will only allow you to do one, maybe two, additional rotations at the onsent of battle (or after a pause) before you hit the energy starvation wall. From that point forward you will shift from a 1 sec GCD to a 1.25-1.5 sec GCD and see a substantial DPS decrease and then plateau.

[Taemek]

Sounds very underpowered. I suggest a 8999% increase of damage included.

:>

Good post though, energy consumption atm feels quite unpolished.

I would suggest removing 'Enduring brew' (WTF?) and replacing it with a passive reduction of energy by 5-10 OR making it a CD ability that decreases energy use by 50% for 20 seconds or something similar.

It's fairly high in the Assassin tree so it may not be good for any other soul combo. I was thinking of swapping it around with 'Poison Potency' or swapping it with 'Silent Footsteps'. That way it's still quite high in Assassin and not so easy to get but enough for a 51 point talent build.

I don't know. I can't balance games for jack.

I like that idea of Enduring Brew being made into a temporary energy saving buff. Make it on a 1 min timer, 15 seconds up, reduce energy used by 30%.

Anthem of Ferver will only allow you to do one, maybe two, additional rotations at the onsent of battle (or after a pause) before you hit the energy starvation wall. From that point forward you will shift from a 1 sec GCD to a 1.25-1.5 sec GCD and see a substantial DPS decrease and then plateau.

This, as we have pointed out countless times, Chloro's Living Energy buff and Bards Anthem of Ferver, you still run out of Energy.

I understand as I said in the OP, that if we are designed to be regulated by our Energy consumtpion, but imho, being starved of energy for 70% of a long term duration fight that lasts any longer then 40 seconds is partially the reason we are so low on DPS compaired to Warriors.

Something as minor as a 2 energy increase every second would make a pretty noticeable increment on our DPS. Same with a 3 - 4% reduction on energy consumption per skill.

[Taemek]

Seeing as there is a pretty heated topic about this currently also going in the Rogue forums, I am assuming that two possible sceanrios are playing out at the office of Trion:

1) They are looking into
2) They think the entire Rogue calling is ok with constant energy stravation being the main contributor to limiting our DPS.

If it is number 2, clearly, the Dev's don't play Rogues.

[Lucubration]

You seem to have latched onto energy mechanics as an across-the-board fix for rogue DPS issues, yet a few problems remain:

- Changing skill energy costs or energy regeneration mechanics across the board for the whole calling is overkill. Rather than identifying specific issues with souls' mechanics, all souls would simply play more 'spammy' with ability use, and many, many souls' abilities would have to be adjusted to compensate for the additional rate of ability use provided. Fixes to deep soul tree talents (in the higher tiers of the tree or roots) would be a better way of increasing the damage of specific, under-performing souls.

- The general claim that increasing base ability damage (or talent bonus damage, or anything else specific to a soul) would make rogue burst overpowered is just as valid as the rebuttal, "No, it wouldn't". That's just a feeling you have, versus a feeling I have. I feel Rogue burst is generally underpowered compared to what other callings are able to achieve right now in multiple specs, and increasing the ability damage (directly or indirectly via a talent change) of some souls would not make Rogue burst too strong.

- There is nothing fundamentally wrong with an effective GCD greater than 1 second in the long term (adjusted per spec and buffs) if the damage over time afforded by that pace were on par with other callings' achievable DPS.

In general, I find that our DPS is almost perfectly on par with other callings' for Nightblade specs, which means that Nightblade DPS is fine and shouldn't really require any tuning. Small changes to increase other souls' DPS to be on par with current Nightblade DPS would bring them in line for DPS without requiring a change to the DPS of souls already performing at the desired level.

From the changes we're seeing on the alpha shard, I think that the developers have not been creative enough about how they could increase different souls' DPS in patch 1.2. Some suggestions that might provide damage bonuses to heavy investment in specific, under-performing souls are:

- Enduring Brew: No cost. Instant. 6.00 seconds cooldown. The Rogue drinks a concoction of dangerous substances that provides them with 10 energy per second for 6 seconds, but causes them to be poisoned for 161 damage over 12 seconds. This poison effect is applied up to 5 times and reduces the energy gain by 20% per effect.

- Advanced Flanking: This ability now also increases Impale's critical hit chance by 10%/20%.

- Serpent Strike: This ability now applies a debuff to the target that increases the poison damage received from the Rogue's poisoned weapons by 100% for 10 seconds.

- Vivacity: This ability now increases the damage caused by Bladedancer abilities by 8%/15%.

- New Bladedancer 44-point root ability: Synchronicity. 30 meter range. 10 second cooldown. Abilities that trigger from Dodging or Parry attacks are also triggered whenever the targeted ally Dodges or Parries an attack. This ability may only be used on one ally at a time.

- Contra Tempo: Whenever you Dodge or Parry an attack, you have a 50%/100% chance to gain 5 Energy.

- Killer Instinct: Your Marksman abilities cause 1%/2%/3% more damage for each Combo Point currently on your target.


On a side note, Anthem of Fervor basically provides the service of tightening Rogue rotations that is suggested by the OP, but is 3-4 times more potent than the base ability cost reduction of 3-4% that was suggested. Yet Rogues who are clamoring for a change in energy mechanics are, in this same thread, saying that Anthem of Fervor provides too marginal of an increase to be effective. This simply seems like a contradictory point.

[Macrocosm93]

Make it so that rogue finishers cost 0 energy

[Deathfairy]

- There is nothing fundamentally wrong with an effective GCD greater than 1 second in the long term (adjusted per spec and buffs) if the damage over time afforded by that pace were on par with other callings' achievable DPS.

This^^

I Do NOT WANT TO be forced to spam every 1 sec, i am perfectly fine with a buffer we get due to energy mechanics.

1) the dude who keeps reposing his crap, at least get your numbers strait. With fevor abilities cost 26 energy. With energy rune you gain additional energy regen, i honestly don't know how much but from the feel of it at least 2/sec. It is noticeable. This brings energy consumption to about 4/sec (Less since finishers are + energy actually).
Any time you have to move and skip a gdc you regain 20energy/sec. BD 15 energy on on finishers make this even less if you have that. Several cds result in energy gain, Ebon fury is one of them it lets you regain 100% energy in raid environment., there was 1 more. Every 2 min you should have verce of Joy, which yet again bring you to 100%.
All of this together results in barely being energy starved in most cases with most situation in a raid. Yes it might you AMG to time your cds well and use consumables to achieve that, but it is DOABLE.

2) As much as i don't want to bring up wow, you cant just throw 6 years out of the window. I LIKE being energy starved rather then GDC starved. It gives you a little more time to think, move, pick right skill, rather then having to spam every second. It gives tactical decisions like save 100 energy for a burst, or wait for a 2p skill to come of cd because you can afford to do it without wasting dps, since you can just use up the energy later.

Bottom line: if you don't want to be energy starved DON'T PLAY ROGUES MMK? This is a class mechanics, and there is no reason to change it. Having lower dps then other classes - problem, being energy starved - NOT a problem.

[Gray]

1) the dude who keeps reposing his crap,

funny that he came to the same conclusion as you.

[Taemek]

All of this together results in barely being energy starved in most cases with most situation in a raid. Yes it might you AMG to time your cds well and use consumables to achieve that, but it is DOABLE.

I am quite frankly sick to death of this blantant downright bs lies.

For starters, you can't do what you suggest for an entire session of raid gameplay, its in 10 - 30 seconds bursts with cooldowns of upwards of 2+ mins.

Secondly, even with all this stuff up, you still run out of energy, I couldn't careless how you try and justify it with the numbers you throw up, any Rogue worth their salt breaking 800+ dps is constantly energy starved.

As you said, it requires many outside variables that other callings are not required to micro manage like a Rogue is to do *great* dps.

Most other high DPS callings from other Archtypes can simply do *great* dps out of a sandbox style based of a generic macro that 90% of the callings use with low level gear.

Rogues require major work, gear, consumable usage and micromanagment to play succesfully and even once you have done all that, you may or may not even be on par with someone from another calling who barely needs to lift a finger to do it.