Warrior 1.2 Discussion

[Kedon]

all ur doing here, is making dual wield the new cheese.

They were examples of the kind of suggestions that have been offered through the related threads by various people. Not a list of demands. Obviously doing all of those would be overpowered. I thought that went without saying, my apologies if I was unclear on that.

If you have rough ideas of your own of making dual wield more equal to two handed fighting by all means note them down.

[spike66]

Thanks for the passionate feedback on the Riftblade and Paragon. We agree with you that there are issues there and we are taking a look at them. We will get back to you when we have a more concrete idea on the direction we plan to go to reslove issues with both souls.

Atrius, the date for 1.2 is now almost here but there have been no updates at all for the Paragon (unless you really want to count "correcting" the description of Shifting Blades). Is there going to be any updates for them today or dropped in to 1.2 for live at least?

Right now dual wielding in general is just so far below using two handers for Warriors that it's not even a contest between the two. Two handed weapons have about 40% more damage than one handers but the off hand weapon for dual wielders is just a stat stick that adds nothing to damage so it doesn't balance out. There's been multiple comments and suggestions for this:

• Let damage whilst dual wilding be a combination of main AND off hand weapon damage
• Reduce GCD to 1 sec whilst two weapon are equipped
• Let Paragon's Deadly Grace proc off ALL Paragon attacks when dual wielding. Not just Dual Strike. Deadly Grace's damage could come from the off hand weapon too.
• Strike Like Iron and Shifting Blades made dual wield only or provide significant bonuses whilst dual wielding. Adjust other Warrior DPS souls to compensate if the former.

Making things DW only will kill any cross tree synergy and essentially lock people into a tree. There is enough DW only stuff in Paragon as is. That is what needs to be buffed, not further limiting the tree.

I think Paragon should get a 44 or 51 point talent that lowers their GCD to 1 sec will DWing.

[mattya802]

WALL OF TEXT

I pretty much disagree with everything you just said. And as someone else stated, if you can only find 2 roles, you fail.

[Gomba]

Paragon luv!?!

[Splug]

Trion why do you continue to pigeon hole Warriors into the same spec for maximum dps? Not every subscriber wants to play a pet class. But to obtain top dps you still have to use 30 champ / 24 bm / 12 para build. This goes against the very reason why you have a soul system.

I've never understood the whole "this is the only good spec because it wins the meters by 50 dps" mentality, or moreover the people who are convinced it is a game developer's goal to create some uber cookie cutter build and just force everyone to play that and only that. Do people really believe Trion hates its player base and is deliberately sabotaging a game their developers and investors have put significant amounts of time, money, and effort into in an effort to rickroll millions of players at personal expense? Of course, if some other spec happened to parse 50 dps higher than beastmaster builds, there would be half a dozen threads about how terrible Trion is for shoving warriors into that spec, and that some people want to enjoy having a pet out and still be competitive.

There will pretty much always be one spec that, for a given set of equipment and utility buffs, deals more damage to a stationary single target than any other in a specific time interval. Capacity for single target damage in perfectly ideal stationary conditions is rarely the only mechanic you'll have to worry about in an encounter (and in the cases where it is - then yes, you use the "best single-target stationary damage" spec). The question becomes, what is an acceptable margin of disparity, and what other benefits does a spec yield in exchange for that damage? And yes- not having to babysit your pet is a real advantage that can and should be considered when selecting a spec for an encounter.

I personally feel that anything which comes within a 10% margin of the ideal-case spec is perfectly acceptable, assuming there is some element of mechanical difference to be leveraged. I run three different damage builds for various encounters. They each have their own advantages and disadvantages, and these are quite often more than enough to overcome a minor loss in damage from a spec with better perfect-conditions throughput. Way of the Mountain is a real benefit - not having to leave melee range for knockback mechanics can increase your damage significantly. Not having to resummon a pet can increase your damage significantly. Being able to dive into an encounter early, switch to adds immediately, and completely ignore threat limitations can increase your damage significantly. Providing a key buff or debuff effect that your raid currently does not have can increase not just your damage, but the whole raid's damage, significantly. Having fewer class-based elements to watch and react to during a complex encounter can keep you alive, which will increase your damage significantly. These are all elements that a training dummy will never show you. Some of them can be mitigated by "playing better," but any strategy or rotation which relies entirely upon sustained perfection is bound to inevitably under-perform. **** happens, and you can't 'outskill' an ISP hiccup. The goal is to meet requirements as consistently as possible, not to set the highest mark in one attempt out of many.

Here are what I view as core problems for the warrior class:
* Dual wielding damage, in any spec I have found, is at least 20-30% behind the top dog two-handed specs. This is enough of a margin to be difficult to overcome via class utility. Furthermore, just about all utility available to these specs can be reached by two-handed builds.
* Certain specs are unique to the raid due to debuffs which are unique to the target. (This is a bug, being fixed in 1.2)
* Beastmaster buff effects do not refresh after zoning; the pet must be resummoned. This is a bug.
* Attack power scaling on warrior skills is relatively low, making AP (and strength) less significant than alternatives such as crit rating (or dexterity). This creates awkward gear contention with rogues, among other problems.
* Strike Like Iron's tooltip (and % damage scaling in general) is misleading. Perhaps something like "Increases skill damage by 48% of the unmodified value" or "increases damage modifier by +48%" would be more accurate.

Here is what I don't see as problems:
* BM/champ/paragon is slightly higher than other two-handed builds. Someone's got to be the top dog, and the margin's not insurmountable.
* Strike Like Iron is a keystone ability for most specs. It is not as overpowered as the tooltip would lead you to believe. It is still good, adds depth to skill rotations, and forces a choice about immediate returns versus throughput damage.
* Burst abilities do not scale with weapon damage. They're off the global cooldown, and they DO scale with attack power. The GCD you save by having an off-gcd finisher means another ability which does scale with weapon damage gets used. At absolute most, you're losing 40% of weapon damage (140% for a 3 AP finisher versus 100% weapon damage at worst for AP-buildup attacks), and even then Rising Waterfall and Enhanced Burst mean it's rarely the full 40% lost.
* Long-term scaling concerns. I don't care if the class in its current state will be completely non-functional in 2014. Odds are that bug fixes, the addition of new stats or procs, or general class revamps will occur somewhere in the next three years. Whether the class is propped up three tiers down the road by gear or by developer-based changes, it will still be competitive and still merit a raid spot.

That's my wall-of-text opinion on the matter, for better or worse. I'm sure some people will agree with me, and some will not, but I feel the statements are justified and well-supported. Thanks for reading, and I hope I've at least put a few worries to rest.

[Gomba]

nice post Splug

[crater]

i completely agree, that goes with all the callings tho not just warriors, if people are caring about 10% damage difference between souls or callings and thats the only way they are able to be doing encounters, then its likely something else wrong with their group/classmakeup.

i prefer to use a 2h or dual wield and not have a pet as a warrior (its just not my thang), if it means i'm doing slightly less dps i don't really care, and none of my group really cares either (and we do just fine), but if it means i'm doing 40-50% less than the other dps warriors in the group because they have 'the top dps cookiecutter' spec (while my group probably wouldn't care that much) i would be pretty bummed ;)

in an ideal world i'd like to run riftblade 51 points and than either champ/paragon as the other 15 points just because i like how riftblade plays, but no matter what i seem to do on the test server, i can't seem to even come close to the same dps as going a max of say 31 points in riftblade (i'd be ok if it were 'close', but i'm talking nearly a 200dps difference), which makes me wonder the point of avatar of the rift is if its actually a huge dps loss by putting 20 more points into the soul? is 51 riftblade really good in pvp or something? i have no experience with pvp on the warrior so maybe thats where i'm not getting the connection.

[Rexxer]

I also agree with Splugs very nice post, wish it was said way sooner so that the Devs could take this info in consideration.

[Rukey]

VOID KNIGHT
* Ragestorm: No longer incorrectly hits more than 5 targets.


Right. And that was a bug you say? And not you trying to justify a nerf. Tooltip says hits all Targets.

Atleast remove pulls with more than 6 targets, because its annoying have to spam AOE's so they hit all targets >,<

[Deioth]

* Strike Like Iron is a keystone ability for most specs. It is not as overpowered as the tooltip would lead you to believe. It is still good, adds depth to skill rotations, and forces a choice about immediate returns versus throughput damage.

You're sying you don't see a problem here? SLI is literally half the problem with warriors in every non-tanking situation. We need it to have competitive DPS. We need it to be a danger in PvP. We're pigeonholed into taking it. Without it, my Beastmaster does such pitiful damage as to be laughable. When I picked it up, I've actually surpassed pre-1.1 damage or at the least made up for the nerfs just to feel as viable as I once was.

Strike Like Iron is problem #1. Problem #2 is our PvP survivability (mostly in level 50 WFs). Problem #3 would have to be the wastefulness of Warlord with a close (or arguably more important) problem #4 being we have only one soul with a clearly worthwhile 51 point ability VS "useless" branches we must spend points on. Actually, problem #5 is heavily tied with 2 and 3, which would be that Paragon isn't that it caters too well to 2handers but doesn't cater enough to dual-wield. Most of our other problems are very soul specific or fall under the umbrella of another. Oh, and our AP scaling being so low as to make crits preferable (and thus preference towards leather) is another problem. Fit it in there somewhere.

Suffice it to say, we've tons of problems, and SLI is the absolute biggest of them all. At least we don't need it to tank, too...

[ArcanaXVIII]

Warrior tanks need another power recovery talent in another tree in addition to Rapid Recovery in Warlord.

Suggestion :

Switch Quality Care and Replenish in the VK tree. Make Replenish a power recovery talent, regaining power each time you spend a pact.

I.e : you spend 3 pacts on Tempest (the 1.2 Tempest), you gain back X/X/X power per Pact.


As a bonus, it would actually make Replenish useful.

[Arcian Darkrobe]

I'd have to agree, that all dps warriors needing to spec into 1x tree for just 1x buff, just to try and compete, is quite ludicrous, to say the least. Abilities not working properly, (i.e. not using the right calculations, conflicts w/ others, etc etc) does put a damper on things, and make true calculations of performance, difficult.

Do I feel tanks need as much loving as dps, yes I do. Why? Even w/ 2x tank souls + pvp soul, tanks are destroyed by magic damage. Does having Reaver + VK anti-magic buffs help? Not enough by far, and definitely not vs a purge class. So we run into melee, get chain CC'd and die in seconds. It's like being a walking free kill. DPS fairs no better. Just due to sheer hp + charge, a tank can make it to charge range... dps well... they're a smolder smear, about 10 meters back.

Warriors need some mitigation for all the trees, AND we definitely need more solid mitigation for spell damage. I don't care if it's linked to the pvp soul, but in pvp we get smoked HARD. Yes, the dimret changes will be nice, but I feel it won't be enough.

Try this on for size. Magic is not negated in any way, by AC. It (magic) is only mitigated by resistances, general mitigation, or magic specific mitigation (i.e. all dmg is reduced X% or spell dmg is reduced X%), thus our big tough armor, means diddly to over 50% of what we face in pvp. Yes, we have purge, but only does curses, no real self cleanse, and even that's on a long cd and high power consumption. We have a self heal, 10m cd from pally, and that's about it. Reaver, pally block -> hp, & pacts -> hp don't do enough to matter in the least. Yes, in a HUGE furball, Reaver can get some nice tics coming in, but it won't amount to much since it's only ~30hp per person hit. (oooh yes vs 10 targets it's a 300pt tick.. wow...amazing, but you're also getting hit for at least 3-5 dmg ticks for that much)

Now for one of the biggest issues. Even w/ a target debuffed by Warlord to take extra dmg, buffs ripped off of them via VK, warriors are still hitting them w/ wet noodles. No matter what spec/role is used, warriors are mostly ignored, because dmg output is utter crap. We are that gnat buzzing around, that's amounting to nothing. I'm not asking for tanks to do mage dmg, I'm asking that as a tank, spec'd for pvp, I am a threat. Not a free kill, or as dps, and VERY big threat. Why? I only do dmg in melee, w/ only a few closers.
(btw, w/ spd buffs to most of the ranged or "blink" moves, it's hard enough to stay there, but in live, it's impossible)

Since I'm on the subject... can we get some pvp utility in our tanking souls? A healing debuff would really nice ya know.. one that's not applied via crit or have a long cd w/ short uptime. Kinda like fellblades. You'd think VK at least or reaver woulda had one stock.

Oh, and I do agree.. warlord should just be support, since right now, that's all it really is used for. (buffing mitigation, a nice ranged pull, and 1x debuff to target) Which reminds me... why on earth is warlord's pull only a few seconds cd, while rift summon is 45sec? Why isn't rift summon the same as warlord? VK's is even a high level talent ta boot! It's not OP in pvp, since they are both taunts, so the target goes immune after 2/3 of them in a row.

[Exphryl]

VOID KNIGHT
* Ragestorm: No longer incorrectly hits more than 5 targets.


Right. And that was a bug you say? And not you trying to justify a nerf. Tooltip says hits all Targets.

Atleast remove pulls with more than 6 targets, because its annoying have to spam AOE's so they hit all targets >,<

That's one benefit clerics have over us now. All the passive threat from the heals helps them on such pulls. Now we have nothing to really compensate for that unless you go Reaver..

[ArcanaXVIII]

That's one benefit clerics have over us now. All the passive threat from the heals helps them on such pulls. Now we have nothing to really compensate for that unless you go Reaver..

Don't say we have nothing when Tempest hits ten targets on a 10sec cooldown and is now at 26 root in VK.

Now you have Ragestorm for small packs, Tempest for big packs.

[WinterDuitser]

I'll get flak for this, but if you want to make warriors better, you have a very very long way to go. Of the 8 souls, Riftblade, Warlord, Void Knight, Paragon, and Beastmaster are looked down on from my experience, yet at some point, we are forced to use them to some degree. While my other characters have all 4 roles filled out, I can only find 2 for a warrior...a tank and a dps role. The addition of a 5th role will leave me with 3 empty ones on my warrior. What does this mean? It means that warriors lack the diversity of the other classes, and have several souls that don't appeal to people. Anytime you can look at a class in this game and see only a couple good builds, something is wrong. The souls in question don't need tiny tweaks, they need to be revamped and seriously improved on. Paragon is just a completely goofy set with how its attacks are scattered all over the place in what they do. Riftblade damage is sub-par, and they have far too many cooldowns and not enough attacks. Warlord is a poor support and tank role...it should focus on one or the other, and not be divided down the middle so it sucks at both. Void Knight...not even sure where to begin here. Pacts are annoying, being magic focused limits your usefulness to select fights, and odds are, you could have done it just as well with a different spec. And lastly, Beastmaster. A warrior with gimpy attacks and a pet that does whatever it feels like, and is squishier then a necro mage pet. Now, these are just the ones with major problems. The others have issues as well. Champion for example barely does more damage per ability hit then a Paragon with equal points spent. Champion should be slow and hard hitting, like the 2h weapons they are based around, but they lack that punch. And Paladin and Reaver...I am sure they have their issues...like Tip the Balance and such barely being worth it. And lastly, an issue with the class as a whole...they have so many cooldowns, conditional attacks, and off the gcd attacks, it makes combat frustating, and in the end, you end up pushing the same 2 buttons over and over again while waiting on a condition to be met, or a cooldown to end. Power regen rate and the gcd itself also come to mind, making warrior combat feel so slow for so little output, not to mention that attack power is far less effective at a damage increase then critical hit is. Attack power almost feels like it doesn't even do anything. As much as I like my warrior, I consider rolling something else more each day. Its a frustrating class to play with little options or diversity compared to the others, and its a class always forced into melee, with no alternative, yet doesn't even melee that well. Anyways, that is my 2 cents and my opinion. Here is hoping they can improve warriors.

3 empty roles?

1 tank phys dmg
1 tank magic dmg
1 tank trash/adds (AoE)
1 dps
1 solo for world pve, health/dps combo
1 pvp

What's the problem?