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Thread: Are you against Instanced PVP or for World PVP?

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple forestwhitakereye's Avatar
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    Default Are you against Instanced PVP or for World PVP?

    Seen a couple posts recently in various threads about how people seem to favor world pvp over instanced pvp. I'm curious to see where people are coming from exactly, and what their objections are, or what they'd like to see.

    Coming from a WoW background, I'd like to hear specifically your thoughts about three aspects of the WoW PVP experience.

    In particular, World PVP. For instance, in Terrokar Forest, there are 5 capturable towers on a 6 hour timer. Capture all 5, your faction gains a PVE damage buff for 6 hours until it resets.

    The Wintergrasp zone. Outdoor siege warfare where the side with fewer numbers gets a proportional health and damage buff to compensate. Half hour long battle with 2.5 hours of downtime. Winning enables access to a raid instance for your faction.

    Instanced PVP, specifically Isle of Conquest (40 vs 40 siege warfare) or Alterac Valley (40 vs 40 with capturable points and objectives. I'd link to this but the page seems significantly out of date)

    Obviously if you haven't come from a WoW perspective, feel free to talk about your own experiences, either on a PVE or PVP server. I'm reaching out especially to the several people I've seen express this preference for world pvp, but I welcome all opinions.

  2. #2
    Rift Chaser Denzen's Avatar
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    i love instanced pvp, and world pvp :P

    i think you need both to make a good game, people is against instanced pvp but its very usefull, when you are tired and just want to do some pvp, Bgs are the perfect place. if you are bored Bgs and random arenas are great =D
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  3. #3
    Rift Disciple Knuckles's Avatar
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    I like both, open world pvp just because it's random and has an element of surprise to it but, it's also very limited if you role on a pve so you can pick and choose when you pvp at your leisure, in BC with Terrokar it really feel that there was a purpose to the effect, sure you got a buff and the ability to collect what was it spirit shards for rewards but the rewards were fairly lacking and outside of just the joy of pvp there was no real motivation to promote it. I think they took it a step further with WG handing out bigger rewards and granting the winners access to a raid that actually motivated people to take part in the event for both the fun of it and the benefits, while mimicking the feel open world pvp it had other draw backs especially on servers that tended to be severely unbalanced. Blizzard attempted to provide a measure of giving the under populated sides a fighting chance but I think the Tenacity buff was just wrong on so many levels, I have characters on both factions of my server so I've had a chance to see what it is like on both angles and don't think the measures they took were well implemented - Having a 20 stack of the Tenacity buff while entertaining in one on one fights really did little to add any strategical advantage when facing off against 2 full raid groups Playing as a member of one of those 2 full raid groups, quite often ended up fairly dull, you knew better than to run off alone or risk being 2 shot by anything that got close, so you just ran around in a big group for killing essentially the equivalent of player controlled raid bosses while others ran south to take down the towers in numbers so large that with 20 tenacity or not you still quickly became over powered.

    Instanced pvp depending on the map, I love or loathe but I enjoy the concept over all you know, getting to play when you want to play, taking the hassle out of forming groups so forth etc and just getting down to the nitty gritty of a fight when I don't have much time to spare is enjoyable for me especially when you are doing the honor grind, I absolutely loved old school AV - I loved the hours it took at times for there to be a winner, because while being instanced it still felt like a battlefield in your own personal little world, I loved that - I loved the struggle for power that took place because everyone was really doing what they could to win because back then grinding through the ranks mattered and it wasn't just about honor needed to collect just one more set that will be collecting dust in your bank next season. Now, through most instanced battle grounds just feel like an honor grind real purpose AV especially, just is one giant zerg, no calvary or aerial assaults, no Ivus the Forest Lord, it's just lost a lot of its mojo. I personally hope if they do include instanced pvp that they at least considering putting in one as large and as epic as old school AV, one that has people coming and going, some for 20 minutes and the hard core can stay in for hours and have a great and rewarding time, both sides hell bent on winning not just getting a few points and going on about their day. Isle of Conquest, never really impressed me, I liked the concept but it feels like it got the same treatment AV did straight out of the gate - in my Battle group, horde always zergs the shop for Demos and Alliance always runs to the docks and dies, and losing the game or to the hangers to blow up the gates from the inside and normally wins doing so, I think it had potential to be as fun as old school AV but just doesn't deliver, for the same reason AV just isn't want it use to be. In general I love large scale pvp efforts, never big on Battlegrounds that resemble mini games like WSG for a example, while I'm sure some do, just never been my scene.

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    Rift Disciple AMEI's Avatar
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    As long as You All, cant or dont bother Us All, while we are doing OUR thing.

    You can do what ever your little black hearts desire.
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    Rift Disciple Nelar's Avatar
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    Good things about
    World PVP: Its never even, unfair fights are the best specially when your the underdog. Never knowing whats around the corner, ambushes, jumping pve raid groups, the random factor, depending on the game, good pvp objectives like mines or attacking player/the main npc cities, player recognition having rivals on the other faction is always a great thing and hate tells (it makes me smile).
    Instanced PVP: ...it has...hmm...I really cant think of one good thing about them.
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  6. #6
    Rift Disciple forestwhitakereye's Avatar
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    @Knuckles

    I agree with you about old school AV. I remember in the pre-AV days, when people would battle over Tarren Mill and Southshore, how one side would push the other side back until the guards were involved, then it would swing the other way and a push could be made to the other town. I wouldn't mind seeing a battleground like that where it was difficult to win and you really needed to do all the cavalry, air support, elemental side quests and deploy them at the right time in order to push in.

    My only problems with AV are really the choke points. If the Alliance has Stormpike and the Horde has Stonehearth, the Alliance literally cannot go on offense because they can't get around the mountain. Likewise once the Horde takes Stormpike, they have to fight across that incredibly difficult bridge. I think minor choke points are important, but I'd like to see a battleground like old AV, but less about the choke point and more about guard density or nearness of enemy respawn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nelar View Post
    Good things about
    World PVP: Its never even, unfair fights are the best specially when your the underdog. Never knowing whats around the corner, ambushes, jumping pve raid groups, the random factor, depending on the game, good pvp objectives like mines or attacking player/the main npc cities, player recognition having rivals on the other faction is always a great thing and hate tells (it makes me smile).
    Instanced PVP: ...it has...hmm...I really cant think of one good thing about them.
    Interesting points. In your mind (or anyone else's), what makes a good world PVP objective? One of the things you dislike about instanced is the lack of randomness. If a world PVP objective is important enough to make it constantly fought over, does that make it worse by making it less random?

    Conversely, how would you make instanced pvp better? What if there was some system for providing random objectives so instead of everybody knowing what the other side would do, you'd never really know who or how many were going to get deployed to each area?

  7. #7
    Champion Bellatrix's Avatar
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    I like them both.

    I'll be the first to admit when I don't have experience with something, so here I go: I don't have much experience with instanced PvP, but the little experience that I do have I can look back on with, if not fondness, than ambiguity. I'm not against it.
    I prefer world PvP, because of the whole "exploring/adventuring(/stalking? :P) aspect of it... but some of both is ideal, I think. One can't please everyone...but that seems like it could get pretty close.

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  8. #8
    Rift Disciple Mellerik's Avatar
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    I prefer world PVP over instanced. Knuckles stated it very well.
    I personally would love to see something like DAoC, where you have objectives/keeps that can be taken over by guilds and then upgraded thru various resources. With things that benefit your guild/faction as a whole it promotes alot of teamwork and comradery (cant spell). Plus it was fun to roll up on a tower/keep and see a certain guilds colors and think " oh Sh*t!!, its XXX guild" knowing you were in a fight for the fight of your life to take it.

    Their "Relic" system was a nice incentive, and perhaps there will be something like it in Rifts.

    Instanced PVP usually ends up as a "Twinkfest" and the set # of players makes it easy to have a group go in and roll over poor Pugs. Being out in the world give those Pugs a fighting chance to even the odds.

    But being on the organized side is fun too

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  9. #9
    Rift Disciple Nasotha's Avatar
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    For world PvP, I'd like it to be a clean fight. There's nothing more frustrating than game mechanics that favor levels over skill or worse - gear over levels and skill. When I'm trying to get my character up to the level where it can compete with top-level characters, I don't need top-level characters beating mine down at every turn. No PvP should occur when one or more characters involved are untouchable due to level. If that's too much to ask, then I think it would be awesome if ganking levied an XP penalty of 10X (percentage-wise) what you forced upon someone who couldn't fight back. Hazing rituals are for knuckle-draggers that fear competition. You want a challenge? Help me get to your level or go log on an alt of my character's level and we'll see how it plays out.

    I am fond of instanced PvP, as it is something I can choose to do any time I like. Instanced PvP has its troubles, such as AFK honor stealing and general idiocy from those who won't listen to the current leader (and leaders that don't bow to the more experienced). Depending on how Rift is designed, neither may apply. I hope that is the case. Forcing leadership on groups of people and rewarding non-participation are two milestones along the path of following the status quo in the MMORPG PvP arena.

  10. #10
    Rift Disciple Nelar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by forestwhitakereye View Post
    @Knuckles

    Interesting points. In your mind (or anyone else's), what makes a good world PVP objective? One of the things you dislike about instanced is the lack of randomness. If a world PVP objective is important enough to make it constantly fought over, does that make it worse by making it less random?

    Conversely, how would you make instanced pvp better? What if there was some system for providing random objectives so instead of everybody knowing what the other side would do, you'd never really know who or how many were going to get deployed to each area?
    What makes world pvp objectives random is the fact you dont know the enemies numbers. Having objectives merely gives world PVP more meaning and hotspots, you could setup ambushes on the way to the objective, or be ambushed yourselfs. The objective itself would generate interesting pvp scenrios which just couldnt happen in a instance.

    Regarding Instanced PVP, there really is nothing that can make it on par with world pvp. Its still an enclosed space, random starting positions would still mean each team has the same starting number and its essentially the same battle scenrio every time. I dont know how to improve them because I dont see how you could. World PVP just as alot more depth and variety to offer.
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  11. #11
    General of Telara aahingenuity's Avatar
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    I prefer instanced to world PvP, it's not really because I hate to lose (it happens more often in World PvP depending on the server you chose and your faction). I like instanced just because I like fair and balanced fights. I also like that instanced PvP has listed/set objectives for your team, it's nice to have a side objective rather than just aimlessly running over and killing some opposing player.
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  12. #12
    Rift Disciple s33kNDstroy's Avatar
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    i have to go with world pvp. the randomness and chaos is what makes pvp fun.

  13. #13
    Plane Touched Chronox's Avatar
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    I am a bit split up.
    While instanced PvP gives the most balance, in form of numbers, World PvP includes 10v1 ganks.

    However World PvP is more savage and unforgiven, and you have to expect the unexpected ;)

    Im all heart for rewarding world pvp, if it is specific zones which bring bigger groups of people together and unifies the factions!

  14. #14
    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
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    I don't like either. As in, I don't like world PvP as you describe it.

    Wintergrasp etc.. I don't want that. In fact, I hate it.
    But I don't find instanced PvP fun at all. It's a multiplayer game then, not a massively multiplayer game.

    (NOTE: I'm fine with others liking these things and I'm glad they're in rift, I'm just saying for myself)

    What I DO like is when the game world is arranged in a way that players can, and will WANT to organize themselves to attack the other faction in multiple skirmishes. AKA Vanilla WoW - when Hillsbrad was legendary.

    I don't mind being corralled around when questing, and sometimes even in dungeons, but in PvP... no - I want it to be player, and hopefully community directed.

    And I hope that it can flourish in Rift.

  15. #15
    Plane Touched Chronox's Avatar
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    the way Wintergrasp works is in no way world pvp, its a zone which becomes some what instanced when the events occur.

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