+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 27
Like Tree19Likes

Thread: Current MMO Model Fundamentally Flawed

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    1

    Default Current MMO Model Fundamentally Flawed

    Firstly:
    I am going to put forward my opinion on how a MMOs could be better than the current ones available. I understand that it will never be adopted by a MMO as it would be too different from the current "working" model. I also understand that you may not like, or may not think that some of the ideas would work. I am not interested in being told this. If however you have a suggestion for a different way of doing something then I am interested.


    I have tried to build a system around two fundamental ideas,
    1) Your should never feel that you (avatar) are not progressing/gaining in power
    2) Your actions should never reduce the amount of content you can do (while still satisfying condition #1).

    The current model is as follows.
    Level a character from level 1 to level X (end game)
    Start doing small group instances
    Start doing tier 1 raids
    Start doing tier 2 raids
    Expansion.. goto start.

    This current model does not satisfy either of my conditions at all.
    Every time you level, advance a raid tier or have an expansion come out you are losing content that you can do.

    Every time you "complete" a raid tier and are waiting for the next tier to come out, you are unable to advance. Even running the top most tier, if you don't get any loot drops - you are not advancing.

    If we expand this to the other areas of these games - Crafting, achievements, dimensions, etc - we see that either they do not advance your character at all, or they provide only a small, fleeting, advancement (such as an item upgrade just after an expansion).

    The gaining of money and materials also does not advance your character. Materials are used in crafting (above) while money is usually spent on one-time upgrades or replacing consumables. Unless you spend your money on vanity items you are able to have more than you need.

    So, where does this leave us

    Who goes back and plays in the starting zones? Now that Storm legion is out, who does the old raids, dungeons and zones?

    How do we fix it?

    We de-linearise the game.

    and how do we do that?

    instead of having character levels - we don't. Everyone starts out at the base level, and we don't advance simply by killing things and gaining "Experience". This means that in 3 expansions when we are all at the higher level cap (the same as we were at the start), the content of the previous expansions is still playable.

    "But what about rule #1" I hear you scream!

    While you don't advance in a single character level, you do have "levels". Except levels are associated with areas or "spheres of influence". A set of zones could be one sphere. Crafting another. Achievement points being a third. It really depends on how you would want them set up.

    Lets look at the zones to begin with. Zones are - Open world areas and instances (Dungeons, raids, chronicles etc), basically anywhere that you adventure (kill things). Each zone (or group of zones) has its own progression level.

    These progression levels can be advanced in a number of ways -
    Boss kills in instances
    the traditional "XP" gaining for open world areas
    completing quests or events/tasks
    some a combination
    or something that I haven't thought of.
    For the rest of the article I will just use kills.

    How do these levels work

    Every time you gain a level in that area, in increases the requirements for the next.
    ie - Level
    1: kill 10 mobs
    2: kill 20 mobs
    3: kill 40 mobs
    ... etc.

    and it continues INDEFINITELY!

    this means that even when you feel it is not worth your time levelling or participating in an area or event because the level up requirements are so large, it is. You are still making your character more powerful (yes, snails do move).

    What do these levels do?

    They give you some sort of ability to upgrade your character.
    Some methods could be
    Planar attunement like grids
    Set stat increases (very similar to the current systems used at the moment)
    FF "Sphere grid" like system
    Free point distribution (Diablo 1/2 anyone?)
    or something that I have not thought of.

    So now we have a bunch of "super uber elite" people running around because they have the time to grind to over 9000!

    Yes, this will happen. It happens now. Uber geared people only want to play with uber geared people, but the effect will be less. You will be able to put in much less time then these people and not feel like you have been truly left behind.

    The gap that people experience is based on many factors (hence I can't give any concrete figures) such as the "base" stat points you start with, the rate that the levels increase and the number of areas there are that can make you more powerful.

    Example:
    There are 30 areas that you can level up in.
    The base stat points of a toon is 500.
    You get one stat point per level.
    If you are able to level each area up to level 20 that will give you a whopping 600 stat points! Making you over 2x as powerful as a noob.
    But if you play for 1/8 of the time of the uber player and your able to level up to 15 for each area your still get a bonus 450, putting you just shy of 2x as powerful as a noob!

    So you can close the "level stat gap" by increasing the base stat points, or decreasing the number of stats gained per level or by increasing the time it takes faster/sooner to get to that next level.

    There is another idea for zones that I have been toying with - and that is the idea of a debuff that is associated to a zone, removing X% of your bonus stats. So when a new zone is released everyone is a new character! It could be removed through some mechanism - completions, gaining X levels ect - until it is gone. This would have two benefits - It would increase your feeling of "progression" as you are gaining the stats you would normally get from levelling an area and you are removing the debuff. It would also give the same progression curve that exists in the current MMOs, except that it would make it far more accessible to everyone later on in the same way the existing tier system works. Those that "have it on farm" would be X% more powerful because they don't have the debuff.


    What about gear!
    Don't have any.
    Many MMOs are starting to disassociate the link between gear and looks. Items that allow you to take the model of one item and apply the stats of another item to allow you to look the way you want.

    So why do we feel the need to have gear? Just give me a wardrobe and be done with it.

    You can still have the excitement of "what gear will this boss drop", just make the boss drop rare crafting mats, or in extremely rare cases an item that would give you enough kills to either advance you from level 1 to 5 in one hit, or give a level 20 a full level. Everyone in the raid would be yelling and screaming at each other in the same way they do at the moment!

    But this system means that these drops are a BONUS! You will be levelling and progressing your character simply, and always, and only, by killing! Does it really make sense that Mega Madusa of Doom should drop a chain helm that is +2 better than the one you are wearing now? NO! But killing her, yep, that teaches you a thing or three.


    No Levels and no Items? Are you removing everything!

    That is just about everything that I would remove. (except for crafting recipes... I will get to that next).
    But look at what we would gain! Imagine if WoW employed this sort of system - every dungeon, raid, zone - all "max" level, all with things for you to get, farm and kill! Imagine Rift with 3 max level continents, full of max level invasions and events! No longer ignoring events in scarlet gorge or silverwood! Evenly populated areas! instead of the only two types at the moment - overpopulated and devoid of life.

    Developers could spend more time on new dungeons and zones. Not having to worry about stats on items or new tiered item looks. Push out something that looks different, acts different and is some way more interesting than "this boss has my gloves".


    You said Crafting before?

    Yep, and I warned you... I would remove everything that is not consumable, or is not a mat used to make consumables! I would also remove those vendor mats that you have to carry around all the time, that do noting buy take up inventory space and annoy the crap out of you when you run out!

    What is the point in crafters being able to make a level 20 pair of pants? Have you ever made pants on the toon you are levelling to help level it? I haven't! All it does is clog up your crafting list. And as I removed items above, what is left to craft? CONSUMABLES!

    That's right. Each profession should have their own. If there are 6 professions in the game then you should be able to buy one buff from each of them and have 6 buffs! They should have a reasonably large impact! They should almost be mandatory! well if not mandatory, they should have a noticeable impact. There should be a few tiers of consumable for each profession, for each stat. So your "raid" tier, while 10% more powerful than your "Group" tier, should cost 2x as much, while the group tier could be 10% more powerful than a solo tier etc. (figures again, are there to demonstrate the idea)


    But while your crafting your not advancing?

    Not true. Every time you craft you gain a point to your "Crafting level", in the same way you level through killing! There could also be "mat sinks" that take in some amount of materials (less than the amount to make a consumable) and is considered a craft. So if your potions aren't selling, and you have too many mats, you can still use them to advance your character.

    Without "filler" recipes, it would encourage the developers to create a more imaginative crafting system. Have tiers of mats - T0 being gatherables, T1 simple mats - possibly used for solo potions, T2 uncommon mats, T3 rare etc.

    You could keep the augment system that is in Rift - I like it, it adds an additional dimension to crafting an item.

    I lied, I'm not through removing things!

    Remove bags. They suck.
    If you have no armour, what are you carrying round?
    That's right, Grey items! got to love them!

    What about mats?

    Don't carry mats round in bags, just store the number I have in a window (Currencies do it at the moment). Give me a limit to the amount I can have if you want, you could even let me pay to increase the limit! But what is the point in making me troll through my bags for an item that I want? I don't need to find them when I'm crafting, only when selling.

    Trinkets/gadgets (not the item trinket) should have their own window - Like WoW has now. Buy them and its an ability in a book.

    Infact we should only need bags, or a bag-like system for things like artefacts or "gadgets", pets, mounts etc you have yet to learn, else there would be no way to trade. Unless you make them BoP (or Collected on pickup). They are vanity items... Go get them yourselves!

    Quest items should, of course, be stored against the quest and not in your bags.

    And I think that is it. If you put items into the appropriate area in the UI you don't need bags! Yes! no bags! Because when your "cleaning out" your bags your not advancing your character are you? Ohh.. and as for grey items... just give me the money...

    Is that it?

    Almost.

    Other things I would implements would be an Auction House in the same style of EvE. People put a sell order of X items up on the AH, and people can buy any amount of that X (like Runescape if anyone remembers) so long as there are that amount to buy. I would also include the buy orders from EvE. So people can say "I want to by X items at Y each", and you can sell any amount you have to this person, up to the X at the value Y. Read up on it if you don't understand, there are plenty of you-tube vids around.

    I would also reserve achievements for "difficult or obscure" things. Not "Close 100 rifts". Do X of anything should be "levelable" and increase the strength of your character. However, as achievement points are countable, they should increase the power of your character (but it would be the only one that had an effective limit).

    I would also find some mechanism that would allow your levels to be applied to all your classes (cross account planar attunement anyone?) This could be by your one toon learning all the classes (and being able to switch at will) or by the cross account thingy. As I only ever play one toon, I would like to learn all the classes.

    Some other mechanisms that could be used to "slow down" player growth and to allow lower "level" / newer characters the ability to become usable in raids are:
    Your top X levels give you 100% stat boost - eg 1 stat per level
    the next top X levels give you a 50% stat boost - eg 1/2 stat per level
    the rest give you 25% stat boost - eg every 4 lower levels gives you one stat point.


    I would add levels of difficulty by making 3 "sub areas" to a zone.
    Area 1 is easily soloable, gives 1 kill per kill and each mine/gather gives one-two mats.
    Area 2 requires 2, possibly 3 people, gives 4 kills per kill and each mine/gather gives 5-6 mats, with a chance for uncommon mats.
    Area 3 is full of elites, needs a 5 person group, with tank and healer. Kills give 10 kills per kill, mines/gathers give 10-15 mats with chances for uncommon and rare mats.

    The reason why I feel that MMOs don't have the social aspect that they used to (ie Vanilla WoW, EvE) is because you can easily play the game as a single player game. While I don't believe that they should make it so that you cant solo (or have to group), I do believe that to get anywhere in any reasonable amount of time you must group! Even if it is with a friend/partner!

    So that is it. My ideas for a new style of MMORPG. Focusing on "horizontal" content expansion instead of "vertical" expansion, with the ability for you to power up your character in what ever way you wish - Crafting, Instant Adventures, Raiding, Dungeons, Housing/Dimensions.... the list goes on!



    Finally

    Just before I finish, here are some rebuttals for some of the arguments that people have against the style:

    Don't worry about integer overflows or really large numbers or stuff like that. While you can become really "powerful" compared to the next guy, we are talking about much smaller numbers here. The large numbers you are used to seeing are only caused by the exponential nature of the current levelling system. Imagine how long it would take you to get to level 60 if you only ever gained the 2-3xp that a level 1 gets from killing a mob. The huge amount of exp that you get from killing things higher level mobs is there to prevent you from thinking that killing lower level creatures is worth while.

    I'm still not sold on the removal of bags. I have just spent too many years playing RPGs to feel comfortable giving them up....

    Yes I know that no one would make a MMO in this style. Are you really unable to think "What If?"

    Crafting would be complex, but you would learn it, in the same way that you could probably tell me what rune to use with what item from what instance/raid for your class. Also, the complexity could be reduced through a nice interface.

    If you don't understand the AH thing... Go look it up or try EvE. There is a free 30 day sub if you can find it, if not then i think is 14 days.

    No I don't know how to enhance player housing.

    Yes, a chap crafting recipe that gave you noting but levels would encourage botters... But this thread is not about botters is it?

    Yes, Mounts, pets and other collectables should be a way to level your character. They could even be employed in the crafting system somehow (Slave labour anyone?)

    No, there aren't 6 professions... As I have said, ALL NUMBERS ARE FOR DISPLAY ONLY. You would have to come up with something that feels right for the game! That also applies to things like rare and uncommon materials, number and types of "farmable" materials etc.

    Yes the thread title does not match the post.

    Thanks for reading!

  2. #2
    Prophet of Telara
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    1,011

    Default

    Guild Wars 2 says "Hi."
    Last edited by Pallydrome; 01-23-2014 at 07:48 AM.

  3. #3
    Sword of Telara Abraxas79's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    892

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pallydrome View Post
    Guild Wars 2 says "Hi."
    With its forced mentoring, no thank-you. It kills immersion.

    ie; You start a new character. You hit the newbie zone, killing level 1 kobolds. You go from zone to zone over a period of time, advance to level 50.

    You are traveling from your home base one day going through the newbie zone. Suddenly that level 1 Kobold that you killed 49 levels ago is giving you a problem again?

    That is why the main reasons why I never cared for GW2. The forced mentoring killed the feeling of character progression. I hope RIFT never goes down that path. Its a lazy way to design a game.

  4. #4
    Plane Touched
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    298

    Default

    And how much would players earn from playing this game? You'd certainly have to pay me to play something where standing still camping mobs 24/7 would be the optimum way to play.

    You start bad, and just get worse. That kill system is just exp. In a different form. And why the he'll would I spend weeks trying to kill a raid boss that only rewards me less that what I could standing in the starter area killing the same mob over and over

    Your wall of text is fundamentally flawed.

  5. #5
    Prophet of Telara
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    1,011

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Abraxas79 View Post
    With its forced mentoring, no thank-you. It kills immersion.

    ie; You start a new character. You hit the newbie zone, killing level 1 kobolds. You go from zone to zone over a period of time, advance to level 50.

    You are traveling from your home base one day going through the newbie zone. Suddenly that level 1 Kobold that you killed 49 levels ago is giving you a problem again?

    That is why the main reasons why I never cared for GW2. The forced mentoring killed the feeling of character progression. I hope RIFT never goes down that path. Its a lazy way to design a game.
    This is why I said what I did in response to the OP. That forced-mentoring made levels and gear essentially meaningless and all gaining a level meant was you could enter a new area.

    The ideas the OP give are almost all in GW2.

    And it doesn't work.


    At least not for me, it doesn't.

  6. #6
    Plane Touched
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    229

    Default

    I am a loot junkie I play these games to get my fix what you are suggesting sounds bland in the extreme.

  7. #7
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Llokii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    456

    Default

    OP should look here

    http://dayzgame.com/

  8. #8
    Champion of Telara
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    1,220

    Default

    I went through the entire wall of text. My response is:

    NO!

    What you describe is a different sub-genre. The kind of sub-genre that Facebook games employ. There is no account-levelling as you play even if it says "you've reached level X", you just unlock rewards.

    Rift is a gear-driven MMORPG. It means that gear is the "ultimate" reward. And that comes either by crafting (surprise!), either by notoriety grinding ie. quest/mob grinding (surprise!) or by raiding (not surprise). The system you propose can work, but it needs to be a completely, built up from zero, new game.

  9. #9
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    10,460

    Default

    @the OP. There is an issue you are missing. While yes you have frustrations with the current set up for MMOs there were numerous studies done back in the day when the term "Evercrack" entered the lexicon. Various Universities did psychological studies and discovered that the progressive nature of MMOs is what made it work. Essentially it is based on an Operant Conditioning effect upon the player. Heck some schools even had/have classes on JMO psychology.

    TBH while it was nice for the subscription model, this is likely even more important for the p2p model. With the subscription model you have my money for the period of my subscription. Even if I got bored before it was up, they still had my money. With the p2p model you need me in the game MUCH more in order to get me to buy from the store enough to meet their profits because of the nature of p2p being that a minority of players consistently patronize the in game shop.

    Now does this mean that all players will like MMOs? Nope. However there is a great deal of research done by the mainstream psychological community that shows that what you do not like about MMOs is what makes them work.

    Here is a good little primer on the topic. http://www.gamecareerguide.com/featu...ioning_in_.php. A little research with find abstracts and even complete studies by Institutions like Stanford, UC Berkley and other institutions.

    I always find threads like this funny though. Look at other forms of entertainment. People don't rage that "Novels are too long..." and then go onto to explain how they should be changed to make them more approachable to the reading public (when in reality they are simply projecting their own personal desire onto said community) and then end up describing a type of literature that already exists (short story, novella or serialization). Why gamers do this escapes me.
    Last edited by Galibier; 01-23-2014 at 08:54 AM.

  10. #10
    RIFT Guide Writer
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    2,257

    Default

    Game designer by trade here and I'd still largely say no to your idea.

    Endless grinding combined with minimal advancement and protracted gear acquisition = Back to Maplestory 1.0 days = No thanks.
    Meciel - Mage - Defer Death - Greybriar
    12/12 T1, 14/15 T2, 1/9 T3

  11. #11
    Telaran digibluez's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Estonia
    Posts
    47

    Default

    there are games out there that tried the no lvl idea, you get skills and gear, but they ended horribly! thats why no one does this with games that have a big crowd to appeal to , blame the majority people for not wanting , what you fancy in games you play.
    Last edited by digibluez; 01-23-2014 at 09:49 AM.

  12. #12
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    10,460

    Default

    Correction.... meant free 2 play not pay 2 play.

  13. #13
    Prophet of Telara Seranov's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    1,045

    Default

    Everything in my being is horrified at this idea.

    There are games like this, but they sure as hell don't make good MMOs. This thread likely belongs more in the offtopic forums, because it's pretty clear that RIFT has not, is not, and will not ever be like this snorefest of a game you suggest.

    Like, I know you don't want to hear it, but damn, man. Why are you even playing MMOs?
    Seranii@Greybriar - 60 Eth Warrior
    | SL: 11/12 T2, 5/8 T3 | NT: X/X T1 |
    < Dirty Casual until 3.0 >
    "One day you'll hang your head as you realize,
    You've heard it all but didn't listen to a word."

  14. #14
    Soulwalker
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aethel View Post
    Don't carry mats round in bags, just store the number I have in a window (Currencies do it at the moment). Give me a limit to the amount I can have if you want, you could even let me pay to increase the limit! But what is the point in making me troll through my bags for an item that I want? I don't need to find them when I'm crafting, only when selling.
    This idea has merit. I would compare it to the crafting tab of inventory in Neverwinter, and I liked the way that game handled crafting mats by basically giving them their own bag and making it searchable.

  15. #15
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    10,460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Seranov View Post
    Everything in my being is horrified at this idea.

    There are games like this, but they sure as hell don't make good MMOs. This thread likely belongs more in the offtopic forums, because it's pretty clear that RIFT has not, is not, and will not ever be like this snorefest of a game you suggest.

    Like, I know you don't want to hear it, but damn, man. Why are you even playing MMOs?

    And this is the issue. I think I know part of the reason though. MMO's are sort of an aberration in the service industry as a whole, forget about gaming.

    Somewhere somewhen MMO's decided to try and be all things to all people. "Just was a solo RPG experience? Large scale PvP? Financial Market Simulation? Mr/Ms Homemaker simulation? arena/fps style PvP? You name it we got it." What other place does this....except Walmart?

    This imo was a BAD idea because in the end they can do little if anything genuinely well. The staff is always running around putting out fires trying to stop QQ screams from one quarter...but when they divert it just starts QQ screams in another.

    It has another effect too. People seem to think that ANY idea they can come up with that would make them happier is free game, even if the idea would make the game into another genre entirely. My suspicion in this case is that the OP either had friends in Rift or made friends. They do not like the game BUT would still like to hang out with their friends so they want the game change in a drastic fashion. The problem is the world doesn't work that way. The only seafood I like is crab cakes and salmon. So I go to resturants that have those two dishes. I do not go into a seafood house and say "get rid of all the other seafood and add steaks, chicken and pasta to the menu". Why not? Because I just asked them to stop being a seafood place.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts