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Thread: Guild Management

  1. #1
    Champion of Telara DemonRage's Avatar
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    Default Guild Management

    We've all been part of a guild, whether you are just starting out in one and being labeled "The New Guy" or are a veteran that has been there for a few months.

    Things to consider: everyone is different and will have differing opinions, one cannot escape this fact about any type of social setting. But having differing opinions is totally acceptable, in fact that different POV maybe what makes the group work well and provides alternate perspectives during raids or other group activities.

    But then there's always one person who joins a guild, and this person will cause turbulence amongst current members. Some would argue this turbulence as part of the "growing pains in getting used to new people". But it persists, and conflicts occur. At first it will be just one or two incidents here and there, then the occasional outburst between this person and other members. Then it becomes more frequent. Before you know it, guild chat amongst members has slowed to a crawl, and some would attribute this to maybe people are just busy and have nothing to say. Then people start logging on less, also attributed to people having other interests at the time. Then your favorite voip that was once a bustling source of conversation and debate is now residence for crickets.

    I know i've seen this problem, in past guilds, heard it from others in other guilds. The first question that comes to mind is what is being done about this person that is obviously being disruptive? Usually just a mild "slap on the wrist" stuff, gets talked to by senior members, etc... so in effect nothing.

    And if asked by others the response seems standard, "No I don't like this person, but we're in a guild and when we raid, we put up with it and ignore the person afterwards". So we ask the guild leader, "Why do we have this person here, so many people have issues with, so many times this person has been confronted, yet no changes in behavior".

    At this point is where i see a defining point in guild leaders, the following 2 responses is expected.

    1. I'm not kicking this person, we need him for "x" during "x" X- fills whatever perceived purpose this person does.

    2. I'll have another talk with him.

    The response i have never seen is "X has kicked X out of the guild"

    So my question is, when presented with a person who sows dissension amongst the ranks. When every effort has been used to mediate and restore harmony, why are most guild leaders ineffectual at just making that choice to kick someone? If said person has made not just one person, but several people in a guild unhappy, why force 15+ people to compromise instead of removing one person who causes distress?

    On a social level my first response would be to just kick the person out.

    On a cold logic level of leveraging between 15 people versus 1 person, no one is irreplaceable. But sheer numbers would outweigh the value of this one person versus 15, 6, or even 3

    "Share your thoughts with me" - Yuri, Command and Conquer Red Alert 2
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  2. #2
    RIFT Guide Writer Meaghanne's Avatar
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    I've kicked plenty of people for: being downright rude and insensible, being a troll and mean to people in general chat, for causing guild drama, and for grieving RPers on our shard.

    I usually talk it over with my officers so we're all on the same page but sometimes a gkick is needed. I've kicked someone out of the guild during a raid for crap talking our guests in Mumble at the time. That one was without officer deliberation.
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  3. #3
    Champion of Telara DemonRage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meaghanne View Post
    I've kicked plenty of people for: being downright rude and insensible, being a troll and mean to people in general chat, for causing guild drama, and for grieving RPers on our shard.

    I usually talk it over with my officers so we're all on the same page but sometimes a gkick is needed. I've kicked someone out of the guild during a raid for crap talking our guests in Mumble at the time. That one was without officer deliberation.
    Then you have my commendation, for many, and i mean many guilds for some reason struggle. And at the best, the absolute best that i hear is "Well next offense and said person is out of the guild" 6 offenses, 3 officers meetings, and more bitter feelings later, that person persists. Why subject your guild to such a thing?

    As Jerry Seinfeld once said "like a bandaid! one motion! RIGHT OFF!!!"
    Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward,
    Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both,
    For a wounded man shall say to his assailant "If I die you are forgiven...."

    "If I live, I will kill YOU"
    such is the rule of honour.

  4. #4
    RIFT Guide Writer Meaghanne's Avatar
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    You were right in saying people can't be replaced...of course they can't, but their role and class can be replaced.
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  5. #5
    Ascendant Eughe's Avatar
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    When forced to GL in past games, ive had to deal with many situations in which someones membership had the potential of being revoked.

    In games that have a high political atmosphere (something rift does not), kicking members becomes a lot more challenging.
    Then, since my guild has had multi ethnic people, culture clashes (not necessarily racism, as that is insta mid sentence kick) do come up. Kicking because of that is completely the wrong move.

    Ive had one person, cool kid. Did a lot for the guild. He and I farmed mats for hours on end for the guild. He would run guild quests for us (he was in china, so at his usual play time during the week, he would be able to do them without interference) and he was an absolute monster in pvp. He even got some chinese guilds to join our alliance (and we had other chinese members who kept that alliance strong).

    However, he was abrasive. Not on purpose, because he was sweetheart with me and a couple members, but sometimes when he is ignored, or people simply do not understand what he is trying to convey, he gets frustrated and goes off in a tirade. He had some trouble within the guild, and it took several hours to calm that down. However, outside of the guild was where the issue came. When you step into a game and find your guild name is put on the KoS list because one of your members is constantly starting ****, alliances broken because he would "claim" an area and killed all who would enter it (just so he can farm rare mats for us <3), and many other things, it becomes taxing on the guild and our constituents.

    I and the officers had talks with him, and the he would give the same response: "I do for guild"
    However, his efforts were not appreciated by our guild, rightly so, because it came a point where we would constantly be in wars (not that i minded much) and sometimes we couldnt even step out of town because it would lead to a sea of flagged players.

    I eventually had to kick him, and i really didnt want to do it, in fact i almost lost the guild because i took too long to do it. With that, the pinoys, malays and chinese pretty much went after us. Fortunately, our old alliances came to our defense and we were able to drive them off the server.

    He hated me so much because he did more for the guild than many vet members who were complaining did. Hell he did more than me. And a few of my officers agreed as well. We got by, but he hated me (and apparently no one else but me) after that.

    Toughest decision i had to make, which is why i hate being a GL.


    I do think, in this game, kicking members would be a lot easier, and more beneficial for guild progression. Since there is very little penalty on getting rid of players here. But in games that promote guild pvp, the resultant can cause a major ripple effect.

  6. #6
    Champion of Telara DemonRage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eughe View Post
    I eventually had to kick him, and i really didnt want to do it, in fact i almost lost the guild because i took too long to do it.
    I have been apart of a guild that this did happen, just like my original post, someone new joined, everything was all roses and champagne for the first few weeks, then things steadily degenerated, hostility towards guild members, came to the point where i just quit the guild.

    Told the GL "I've been in several guilds before, and normally when this situation comes up, and you don't have what it takes to do what needs to be done, you'll lose control of your guild. People like him are a social cancer, that will eat away at the rest of your members, and they will either leave or just not log on at all. Your raiding team will not only have to put up with the stresses of raid but his presence also. I've made my choice, this i leave to you as one more gesture of good will, cut the cancer out. or let your guild wither and die"

    I still had the GL on my friends list because i liked talking to him, after awhile in meridian what was maybe 10- 15 of the guild went down to 5, then down to just 2, then down to the GL only logging in once a week, last i saw he was trying to rebuild his raiding force.
    Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward,
    Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both,
    For a wounded man shall say to his assailant "If I die you are forgiven...."

    "If I live, I will kill YOU"
    such is the rule of honour.

  7. #7
    RIFT Guide Writer Meaghanne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eughe View Post

    Toughest decision i had to make, which is why i hate being a GL.
    These decisions are tough to make as a guild leader. It's a tough job and takes some political prowess to conquer issues at times.
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  8. #8
    Champion of Telara DemonRage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meaghanne View Post
    These decisions are tough to make as a guild leader. It's a tough job and takes some political prowess to conquer issues at times.
    Oh i understand this, I was a GL in another game. But the difference was, i liked to kick people. I told my guild that frequently, sometimes i'd hover over peoples names in the roster and think for a little, most times i moved on when i couldn't think of a reason to do it.

    But one day i got msg'ed at work from 4 different people complaining about one guy, heard all sides and told everyone i am giving him one chance, this is that chance. He did it again and he was kicked. Sadly he was reinvited by another officer, but this time i watched him like a hawk. And before he could finish his last thought while he was going off at another member.... kick.

    I think to some degree it is the fact like eughe was saying that at the end the guy hated him, and only him. Most people are uncomfortable with that, I believe one person versus my other members who will be miserable with this guy, then after awhile will grow a festering resentment at me not taking action. I'd rather kick one person and spare the rest of my guild from that stress.
    Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward,
    Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both,
    For a wounded man shall say to his assailant "If I die you are forgiven...."

    "If I live, I will kill YOU"
    such is the rule of honour.

  9. #9
    General of Telara Asaomar's Avatar
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    For my guild at least, unless somebody is doing something that is seriously causing issues, we try to at least work it out/give the person warnings. For a while now(mid infernal dawn progression until now) I've been very lucky in that the guild has been 100% drama free. Before that, not so much. I personally hate kicking people. Hate it with a passion. The times I have to kick are few and far between.

    If somebody is causing enough trouble that the majority of the guild is having issues with them, I try to talk it out with them first. If that doesn't work however, I have had to gkick a couple of times. The three people that came the closest to getting kicked but didn't quit the game or guild because they saw it coming.
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  10. #10
    Champion of Telara DemonRage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asaomar View Post
    For my guild at least, unless somebody is doing something that is seriously causing issues, we try to at least work it out/give the person warnings. For a while now(mid infernal dawn progression until now) I've been very lucky in that the guild has been 100% drama free. Before that, not so much. I personally hate kicking people. Hate it with a passion. The times I have to kick are few and far between.

    If somebody is causing enough trouble that the majority of the guild is having issues with them, I try to talk it out with them first. If that doesn't work however, I have had to gkick a couple of times. The three people that came the closest to getting kicked but didn't quit the game or guild because they saw it coming.
    I believe the common denominator in all past guilds i have been where this issue comes up, and interestingly enough, is that often Guild Leaders and Guild Officers, in the face of progression, will value numbers over people. That they will put up with a surprising amount of discord and abuse and expect their other members to deal with in the light of progression.

    Much like the topic below this that highlights several personal problems that are in mmo's now a day, most guilds that push for progression, and for the lack of a better term, treat situations like this as a job. I work a job, i get that mentality, i am being paid to put up with a lot of things so that at the end of the month/2 weeks i get a paycheck that pays the bills.

    The fallacy that most guild leaders fall into is this simple equation, Pixles > people. Meaning while you are guilded with people, they cease to be just a screen name, they cease to be a toon with decent, or even epic raiding gear, they cease to be a tank, or support. After awhile you hear about their lives, someone loses their apartment, someone got his hours cut, someones on workmans comp.... you forge relationships with people in your guild. When you introduce a deviant into the group, tensions rise, discord ensues.

    and while most hesitate to kick, a slow resentment starts forming. am i advocating swift judgement, no by all means measures can be taken, mediation, ground rules apply. but if the issue persist, how long will one side hold until they call it quits and leave? How much weighing will raid numbers and performance come to social relationships?

    at what point will People > Pixels rather than Pixels > People.

    To me no amount of parsing can justify allowing bad behavior. No amount of bosses down will make me keep problem individuals in close proximity with guild mates. But i have been proven in the past, my logic is flawed, pixels > people wins out
    Last edited by DemonRage; 02-11-2013 at 07:09 PM.
    Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward,
    Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both,
    For a wounded man shall say to his assailant "If I die you are forgiven...."

    "If I live, I will kill YOU"
    such is the rule of honour.

  11. #11
    Ascendant Laeris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DemonRage View Post
    We've all been part of a guild, whether you are just starting out in one and being labeled "The New Guy" or are a veteran that has been there for a few months.

    Things to consider: everyone is different and will have differing opinions, one cannot escape this fact about any type of social setting. But having differing opinions is totally acceptable, in fact that different POV maybe what makes the group work well and provides alternate perspectives during raids or other group activities.

    But then there's always one person who joins a guild, and this person will cause turbulence amongst current members. Some would argue this turbulence as part of the "growing pains in getting used to new people". But it persists, and conflicts occur. At first it will be just one or two incidents here and there, then the occasional outburst between this person and other members. Then it becomes more frequent. Before you know it, guild chat amongst members has slowed to a crawl, and some would attribute this to maybe people are just busy and have nothing to say. Then people start logging on less, also attributed to people having other interests at the time. Then your favorite voip that was once a bustling source of conversation and debate is now residence for crickets.

    I know i've seen this problem, in past guilds, heard it from others in other guilds. The first question that comes to mind is what is being done about this person that is obviously being disruptive? Usually just a mild "slap on the wrist" stuff, gets talked to by senior members, etc... so in effect nothing.

    And if asked by others the response seems standard, "No I don't like this person, but we're in a guild and when we raid, we put up with it and ignore the person afterwards". So we ask the guild leader, "Why do we have this person here, so many people have issues with, so many times this person has been confronted, yet no changes in behavior".

    At this point is where i see a defining point in guild leaders, the following 2 responses is expected.

    1. I'm not kicking this person, we need him for "x" during "x" X- fills whatever perceived purpose this person does.

    2. I'll have another talk with him.

    The response i have never seen is "X has kicked X out of the guild"

    So my question is, when presented with a person who sows dissension amongst the ranks. When every effort has been used to mediate and restore harmony, why are most guild leaders ineffectual at just making that choice to kick someone? If said person has made not just one person, but several people in a guild unhappy, why force 15+ people to compromise instead of removing one person who causes distress?

    On a social level my first response would be to just kick the person out.

    On a cold logic level of leveraging between 15 people versus 1 person, no one is irreplaceable. But sheer numbers would outweigh the value of this one person versus 15, 6, or even 3

    "Share your thoughts with me" - Yuri, Command and Conquer Red Alert 2

    People in my guild know how I operate. Generally, I can tell if someone is a troublemaker and if someone isn't. So, when I get word from inside or outside sources that someone is acting up... I usually have a pretty good idea as to the validity of the report. Now my system has and always will be this:

    If I get a report from a single outside source complaining about someone's behavior... I talk to the complainer and get the details first-hand. Then, I talk to the offender and get his story. Generally, I try to mediate the dispute and resolve it with a warning. In concept, one must set the standard then enforce the standard. The warning is done to let them know that they crossed the boundaries... etc.

    For a 2nd offense... I don't even contact the guild member. I immediately kick them out. If they want back in, they can earn it by proving their innocence. Sometimes I kick out good people... but I always err on the side of caution. I believe the guild reputation is more important than a bureaucratic process. If someone was wrongfully reported... no big deal. We'll get them back in. Kicking them out early though keeps bad apples from doing things like spamming the guild wall, looting the guild bank of tabs they're allowed access to, and other such things. So it's a pretty quick wham-bam see ya without so much as a question.

    The reason I do this is because, like I said, I know my people. People don't get into the guild that either myself or a trusted officer can vouch for. So, if someone acts up and goes off the reservation, we simply lock the gate behind them. If they want back in, they can contact myself or an officer to be reinstated if/when we feel it is appropriate.

    In terms of progression/needs... eh. Progression is never worth the integrity of the whole. That's why guilds like mine have been around since 2007. We don't zerg recruit and we don't let behavior issues slip just so the guild can get a server first or another boss down on progression. I'd rather be slow raiding and respected as having good people than be some obnoxious guild full of the server's bad apples. Those guilds only last until someone else gets higher up in progression and they all jump ship or implode from loot rage.
    Last edited by Laeris; 02-12-2013 at 06:39 AM.

  12. #12
    Champion of Telara
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    As a guild leader, you have no luxury to be everyone's best friend. You must operate your guild like a business in order to achieve success. Many people may argue this, but those people are generally in bad guilds that are going nowhere (at least in the raiding scene). If one person is causing disruption, they must be removed, just like at a job. If someone is unable to perform their task at work or is rude with colleagues/customers, it doesn't matter if they show up on time every day. They need to be fired.

    Guild leaders who allow problems to manifest are people who shouldn't be leading guilds.

    Oh, and, everyone is replaceable.
    Last edited by Ayona; 02-12-2013 at 04:01 PM.

  13. #13
    Champion of Telara DemonRage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laeris View Post
    People in my guild know how I operate....
    That is somewhat how i ran things, it gives people in your guild a sense that respect is required and that corrective action is not just imminent, but in certain circumstances is very swift. Yet it gives them the option of trying to get back in but with the understanding that their actions lead them to a reprimand and that they are back on a "probation" status.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laeris View Post
    In terms of progression/needs... eh. Progression is never worth the integrity of the whole. That's why guilds like mine have been around since 2007. We don't zerg recruit and we don't let behavior issues slip just so the guild can get a server first or another boss down on progression. I'd rather be slow raiding and respected as having good people than be some obnoxious guild full of the server's bad apples. Those guilds only last until someone else gets higher up in progression and they all jump ship or implode from loot rage.
    Do not take this as an insult, but my past experience on this game has taught me quiet the opposite, and i would imagine that many a guild leader would not admit it but have a policy that if "playerX' is doing XXXXXXX damage/XXXX Heals/provides XXXXX to the guild, and shows up to raid everyday on time, and is part of the core team, they are immune to any type of disciplinary action. And often "playerX" knows this and will abuse this fact to its fullest extent.

    Eughe himself pointed this situation out, that it is infact even harder to kick someone who puts up desirable traits, albeit having other less than desirable, or even abrasive traits towards the rest of the guild/community around him.

    And with that, his comment of how when he finally kicked him, said person superimposed all the anger from that (possibly from the feeling of being betrayed by the only person who remained a friend for so long but imo such a person should not have placed that much on eughe to the point where the stress of everyone vs. said person would force a choice), and applied it on him after. To me similar has happened to the effect that a GL would refuse to kick said abusive person, and would defend his/her actions, so this inactivity creates a reason to transfer my disdain and malice from the abusive person and impose this same hatred towards the guild leader. The sentiment of "you allowed this to happen, so you are equally responsible if not more so than him", begins to manifest.

    And at that point a new issue is created. The abusive person knows that he himself is abusive, it is in his nature and he refuses to correct the issue, the responsibility now falls under those with authority, and in terms of inaction becomes the case, who is worse? The person who is causing the issue, or the authority that refuses to take action to correct it?

    Needless to say that in the end, its another guild leader that i have lost respect for and long after everything is said and done, there will always be a lingering doubt that if the same situation occurs, the outcome will more than likely be the same tiring gauntlet of disappointment and frustration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayona View Post
    As a guild leader, you have no luxury to be everyone's best friend. You must operate your guild like a business in order to achieve success. Many people may argue this, but those people are generally in bad guilds that are going nowhere (at least in the raiding scene). If one person is causing disruption, they must be removed, just like at a job. If someone is unable to perform their task at work or is rude with colleagues/customers, it doesn't matter if they show up on time every day. They need to be fired.

    Guild leaders who allow problems to manifest are people who shouldn't be leading guilds.

    Oh, and, everyone is replaceable.
    In my experiences most guild leaders are only adept at managing a raid and some light inter personal mediation. where it begins to fall apart is decisions that require some backbone, and a willingness to accept that someone somewhere out there will not like you, but in the end it is a far better thing than having multiple members of your guild not like you and in extreme cases your guild falls apart in one way or another.
    Last edited by DemonRage; 02-12-2013 at 07:28 PM.
    Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward,
    Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both,
    For a wounded man shall say to his assailant "If I die you are forgiven...."

    "If I live, I will kill YOU"
    such is the rule of honour.

  14. #14
    Ascendant Misun's Avatar
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    kick'em.

    I play to have fun, not put up with BS.
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  15. #15
    Ascendant the_real_seebs's Avatar
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    I've seen the jerk get kicked once or twice. Not super often, but it does happen.

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