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Thread: The problem with MMO's today .......

  1. #1
    Champion millie's Avatar
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    Default The problem with MMO's today .......

    Well the problem is probably not with MMO's or the Developers or the Companies the produce the games, it is probably with me.

    Back when I started playing Role Playing Games, they were just that Role Playing. A few friends and I had an idea this Dungeons and Dragons thing might be fun. One of us, I can not remember who, thought that they would have a go at being the "Game Master" and started wrighting stuff and creating a bit of a plot. After a couple of weeks of this he announced he was ready and we all gathered in the pool room at my house and started to play. Pretty soon what we had going was a sort of group created interactive novel. This is what I remember and this is what I love.

    We had no problem in seperating what our characters where doing and how they were interacting from what we were doing as teenagers and how we interacted, we did not get any sort of ego boost by playing the game or think we were better than the others because we levelled faster or hit harder or whatever, it was a game we did together and had fun.

    Years later (a couple of decades actually) when I started playing Everquest I found much the same thing, the game master had been replaced by Verant (SOE), my D&D friends and I had long since lost touch but I found new people and made new friends. Role playing was a big part of the experience and people did things with their characters because that was what the characters would do. You did not see people jumping down the road or just jumping. They walked, run or rode as their character would have. Lots of things that are now common place and regarded as legitimate fun were unknown, rare or at least very uncommon. Griefing, ganking and trolling (if they were even labelled as that) were disapproved of and sanctioned by GM's and players alike. Yes they were much discussed but not as 'legendary' or 'epic' but as childish and disreputable.

    Today these things are regarded as normal parts of the game, whole guilds indulge in them on a regular basis. No real disapproval no sanctions, indeed some games are being designed to encourage this sort of behaviour.

    As for seperating the character from the player, there is a steady progression towards making the character simply a wardrobe choice for the player, multiple characters becoming just multiple outfits for the same player. No role playing at all, unless you count people who have an on-line persona that they would never dare to act out in real life.

    For people with my mindset this is bad thing. A down hill slide into 'console' style 'action' and 'magic realism'. For, what I believe is the majority of MMO players today, this is a major "quality of life" improvement.

    In the end, looking at RIFT today, at the other AAA games out there and at what is coming in 2013 I have little desire to play any MMO. I still want to play a multiplayer online role playing game, with a fantasy theme and current generation graphics. I have the money and the time to play one. Unfortuantely no company out there thinks there is enough of a market to actually make one.

    As I said in the beginning the fault is with my perceptions and desires, the gaming industry is catering to the market that exists and not to my personal tastes.
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by millie View Post
    In the end, looking at RIFT today, at the other AAA games out there and at what is coming in 2013 I have little desire to play any MMO. I still want to play a multiplayer online role playing game, with a fantasy theme and current generation graphics. I have the money and the time to play one. Unfortuantely no company out there thinks there is enough of a market to actually make one.

    As I said in the beginning the fault is with my perceptions and desires, the gaming industry is catering to the market that exists and not to my personal tastes.
    Once upon a time you shopped at the general store on the corner and spent a few minutes chatting with the owner, Tom, about your kids and stuff. Then the supermarkets opened and Tom retired and the store closed. Then Wal-Mart put the supermarkets out of business, and then they opened Sam's Club. Now you buy your groceries in a warehouse and you don't say anything to the teenager running the register.

    Everything changes.

  3. #3
    Ascendant MoonfireSpam's Avatar
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    The question is whether or not you have the money and the time to start one up yourself.

    Because if you do, and your MO is what you described, I will fork over my money to you to play your game.
    So long, and thanks for all the fish~

  4. #4
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by millie View Post
    Well the problem is probably not with MMO's or the Developers or the Companies the produce the games, it is probably with me.

    Back when I started playing Role Playing Games, they were just that Role Playing. A few friends and I had an idea this Dungeons and Dragons thing might be fun. One of us, I can not remember who, thought that they would have a go at being the "Game Master" and started wrighting stuff and creating a bit of a plot. After a couple of weeks of this he announced he was ready and we all gathered in the pool room at my house and started to play. Pretty soon what we had going was a sort of group created interactive novel. This is what I remember and this is what I love.

    We had no problem in seperating what our characters where doing and how they were interacting from what we were doing as teenagers and how we interacted, we did not get any sort of ego boost by playing the game or think we were better than the others because we levelled faster or hit harder or whatever, it was a game we did together and had fun.

    Years later (a couple of decades actually) when I started playing Everquest I found much the same thing, the game master had been replaced by Verant (SOE), my D&D friends and I had long since lost touch but I found new people and made new friends. Role playing was a big part of the experience and people did things with their characters because that was what the characters would do. You did not see people jumping down the road or just jumping. They walked, run or rode as their character would have. Lots of things that are now common place and regarded as legitimate fun were unknown, rare or at least very uncommon. Griefing, ganking and trolling (if they were even labelled as that) were disapproved of and sanctioned by GM's and players alike. Yes they were much discussed but not as 'legendary' or 'epic' but as childish and disreputable.

    Today these things are regarded as normal parts of the game, whole guilds indulge in them on a regular basis. No real disapproval no sanctions, indeed some games are being designed to encourage this sort of behaviour.

    As for seperating the character from the player, there is a steady progression towards making the character simply a wardrobe choice for the player, multiple characters becoming just multiple outfits for the same player. No role playing at all, unless you count people who have an on-line persona that they would never dare to act out in real life.

    For people with my mindset this is bad thing. A down hill slide into 'console' style 'action' and 'magic realism'. For, what I believe is the majority of MMO players today, this is a major "quality of life" improvement.

    In the end, looking at RIFT today, at the other AAA games out there and at what is coming in 2013 I have little desire to play any MMO. I still want to play a multiplayer online role playing game, with a fantasy theme and current generation graphics. I have the money and the time to play one. Unfortuantely no company out there thinks there is enough of a market to actually make one.

    As I said in the beginning the fault is with my perceptions and desires, the gaming industry is catering to the market that exists and not to my personal tastes.
    Very well put. Very good post. I have been starting to feel the same way sort of as of late. I recently actually had gone back to playing D&D and it was great fun. If you have not heard about MapTool and playing D&D via a virtual tabletop online I would recommend looking into it. It is a hell of a lot of fun.

    That said, I do not necessarily play MMORPGs for the RP part, I have other activities for that, I play them for the enjoyable group gameplay. However, it is getting harder and harder to find like minded players and be in a guild with people who want to play the same as me, and I too have been thinking about quitting lately, through no fault of the devs. They make one hell of a game and continue to show they will do what the majority of the players want. It is a business after all, and they need to make money, so they do what they think will make them the most.
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  5. #5
    Rift Master Ymirson's Avatar
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    Just get a good P&P group running and leave the MMOs to powergaming and PvP. Because honestly, just about any MMO (or just computer game would also fit. Almost any social interaction device, like a trend sport or a good fantasy novel would fit.) starts with a small, tight-knit, casual, relaxed, friendly, social, mature and focused community, but as soon as it's opened to the masses, the whole immersion is lost. It's been that way everytime since, i dare say, the dawn of mankind.

    I bet agriculture was a cool thing to do, back when most trolls and griefers were out hunting.
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  6. #6
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by millie View Post
    Well the problem is probably not with MMO's or the Developers or the Companies the produce the games, it is probably with me.

    Back when I started playing Role Playing Games, they were just that Role Playing. A few friends and I had an idea this Dungeons and Dragons thing might be fun. One of us, I can not remember who, thought that they would have a go at being the "Game Master" and started wrighting stuff and creating a bit of a plot. After a couple of weeks of this he announced he was ready and we all gathered in the pool room at my house and started to play. Pretty soon what we had going was a sort of group created interactive novel. This is what I remember and this is what I love.

    We had no problem in seperating what our characters where doing and how they were interacting from what we were doing as teenagers and how we interacted, we did not get any sort of ego boost by playing the game or think we were better than the others because we levelled faster or hit harder or whatever, it was a game we did together and had fun.

    Years later (a couple of decades actually) when I started playing Everquest I found much the same thing, the game master had been replaced by Verant (SOE), my D&D friends and I had long since lost touch but I found new people and made new friends. Role playing was a big part of the experience and people did things with their characters because that was what the characters would do. You did not see people jumping down the road or just jumping. They walked, run or rode as their character would have. Lots of things that are now common place and regarded as legitimate fun were unknown, rare or at least very uncommon. Griefing, ganking and trolling (if they were even labelled as that) were disapproved of and sanctioned by GM's and players alike. Yes they were much discussed but not as 'legendary' or 'epic' but as childish and disreputable.

    Today these things are regarded as normal parts of the game, whole guilds indulge in them on a regular basis. No real disapproval no sanctions, indeed some games are being designed to encourage this sort of behaviour.

    As for seperating the character from the player, there is a steady progression towards making the character simply a wardrobe choice for the player, multiple characters becoming just multiple outfits for the same player. No role playing at all, unless you count people who have an on-line persona that they would never dare to act out in real life.

    For people with my mindset this is bad thing. A down hill slide into 'console' style 'action' and 'magic realism'. For, what I believe is the majority of MMO players today, this is a major "quality of life" improvement.

    In the end, looking at RIFT today, at the other AAA games out there and at what is coming in 2013 I have little desire to play any MMO. I still want to play a multiplayer online role playing game, with a fantasy theme and current generation graphics. I have the money and the time to play one. Unfortuantely no company out there thinks there is enough of a market to actually make one.

    As I said in the beginning the fault is with my perceptions and desires, the gaming industry is catering to the market that exists and not to my personal tastes.
    Whilst the roleplaying aspect is not something that intrests me. This is a very well worded post, With which sentiments I totally agree.
    The original MMO players are now a market that needs to be tapped into and a potential lucrative one at that. The money for MMO developers is not in the 16-20years bracket spending pocket money on a subscription anymore. This generation has now become the 30 years + generation with jobs and expendable income.

    Trion would do well to take note of your last paragraph.

  7. #7
    General of Telara arus2001's Avatar
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    I've long been of the mind that the RPG in MMORPG has been lost, and this struck me as early as FFXI back in 2004 (my first "traditional" MMO if you don't want to count MU*s). It's not that gear treadmills or combat systems are inherently bad. Rather, no company has ever taken the steps to actually reward RP. As a result, it becomes an activity shunned by those who don't do it out of love, as those hours spent socializing could've been spent making cash and getting new loot to pewpew harder.

    Mechanically, combat systems also haven't favored RP. There is no pausing to speak or even really react to damage you take. The moment you engage with a mob, it wants to kill you and tries to kill you until either it or you dies. Players may subvert this a little, but then things like resource generation get skewed, ruining potential balance systems set up for a more active environment. Basically, RP needs to be turn-based, not real-time. 2 is always greater than 1 in combat mathematics. In genuine RP settings, you may have times where that 1 beats 2.

    From there, it's a matter of how you can influence the world. I can not change Telara at all. I am a mook in the plot. A lot of places I visit with established worlds also usually have something about them I dislike. As a result, I tend to sandbox my RP in settings that may be similar, but different. Some are more loosely defined. Some wind up being precise. For example, if I had my hand Rift's pen, the dragons wouldn't have been hiding in dungeons waiting for raiders. They would be out in the world making mischief and being an actual threat. If you don't raid, you never see those story threads. And I doubt they're particularly impressive on delivery to begin with.

    In the end, I'm a hard sell when someone wants to espouse the concept of creative freedoms. No MMO that I've played has yet to really embrace that needed sandbox feel to make you feel like more than just a spectator to scripted events. And without incentive, you have a hard time drawing in fresh blood. Yes, you'll get exceptions. And yes, there will be times where I find my command of the English language utterly thrashes that of what I presume to be a teenager on the other end of the screen. I don't mind that so much as long as they understand that RP thrives on people having hooks to react to. So, until an MMO somewhere addresses these, I find my RP elsewhere.

  8. #8
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    The problem is one of sandbox vs themepark...Themepark is popular now. Most..see leveling as a chore and that the real game doesnt even begin until max level. I disagree. I bought the whole game. I want it enjoyable level 1 to whatever cap and beyond. The current clientele have so bullied Devs into rushing leveling content to where its just what they whined about to start with. BORING. I can solo to level cap against 2-5 monsters my level or higher without even breathing hard. I get gear handed out like candy all along the way to ensure my success. Everyone wins a trophy...wouldnt want anyones' self esteem hurt.
    Nothing is earned at all. No longer are there huge open world dungeons that supported multiple groups a la EQ that were fraught with danger...death around every corner..corpse recoveries etc. But the rewards of the rare drops were quite good and actually meant something. Now its just do the same dang dailies everyday until you get certain faction and you get a prize...boring.
    It's too bad this genre has been hijacked by low attention me first I want it now types. To tie this in with the OP...in D&D it took a LONG time to get a max level character IF EVER. EQ originally took 6 months playing hard and longer casually...Now ? 2 days big deal.

  9. #9
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    Ah, those rose-colored glasses... I played D&D too, back in the day, first learned of it around 1980 when a friend "borrowed" his brother's copy of the Monster Manual and other books... but there were people even then who took the easy road. Monty Haul campaigns where every kobold had a +2 dagger in his pocket and that guy who shows up with one of your regular players - he rolled a barbarian because they have more hp than fighters and swears that he really rolled that 18 Con and 18/00 Str, his buddy watched him do it.

    D&D still exists, and people still play it - but the game today is almost unrecognizable from 1st Edition AD&D or basic "red box" D&D. And you can still play Everquest, you can download the original for free from Steam as well as EQ2. But I think the majority of players of those older games have moved on to other things, it will be hard to develop an entirely new game that emulates the old games' styles and reach enough of an audience to make a profit.

    Companies employ people whose job is to research the market and tell them if there's a real chance that Idea X is going to be worth developing or not. If old school MMOs had enough interested players to make them worth developing, there would be projects in the works right now to bring in those dollars.

  10. #10
    RIFT Guide Writer Redcruxs's Avatar
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    there are games with the oldschool mentality still around

    the problem is, no one plays these games because they are boring to most of us now

    I suggest just to take it all in stride and focus on YOUR definition of fun and it will be there. I've found that the more you worry about FOTM specs, raid progression, and ****** everyone in PvP the less fun you have.

    Play the game, don't grind, if you aren't having fun then change what you're doing or change games untill you are having fun.

  11. #11
    Champion Celke's Avatar
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    Not only mmo but in general,

    I am 21 years old so I don't really have played old games like EQ for example.

    But what I found is that the games when I was around 16 - 18y where the best in for story and such.

    I really love the story in RIFT and is the main game for me but those older games I really found the best and 99% of the new games since I was around 19 - 20 Y old fails a lot for me.

    RIFT is the only game that has kept me playing so long and that I still love a lot.

    Guild Wars 1, got all the games and the expensian I really loved it and played so much on it, I bought GW2 and stopped playing after 3 weeks cuz I was bored and disliked it so much ...


    Imo, they should focus a bit more on gameplay in most games.
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    Rift Master Ymirson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celke View Post


    Imo, they should focus a bit more on gameplay in most games.
    Noone plays a bad game with a good story. Many movie and novel adaptions fail on this.
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  13. #13
    Champion Celke's Avatar
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    Personaly if the story is not good or goes down then the game is bad and I will stop it

    That's the reason why I stopped "that other game" with pandaland.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestran View Post
    lol, you are the one I could see,
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    after i hit lvl 60 and do a few raids if they are worth doing in these nerfed days, rift will be my last fantasy mmo. swtor is my last Sci-fi mmo. after that, i am done with mmos. i am sick of the nerfing of doable, challenging content and sick of supporting the easy, instant gratifying, games. if i want that, i would play my ps3 or xbox 360 console games. i guess the mmo companies want to create super console games on the pc and on-line.

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    Champion Celke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riftloreseeker View Post
    after i hit lvl 60 and do a few raids if they are worth doing in these nerfed days, rift will be my last fantasy mmo. swtor is my last Sci-fi mmo. after that, i am done with mmos. i am sick of the nerfing of doable, challenging content and sick of supporting the easy, instant gratifying, games. if i want that, i would play my ps3 or xbox 360 console games. i guess the mmo companies want to create super console games on the pc and on-line.

    I do not know any MMO at this time that does not nerf anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestran View Post
    lol, you are the one I could see,
    ToTDQ:4/4 || FT: 4/4 || EE 5/5 || HM (3/4)

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