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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Any promising MMOs on the hoirzon?

  1. #31
    Rift Disciple FooFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianMorin View Post
    What would you do with significantly more client side computation power? We're already seeing the art side in the industry get more and more stylized to keep production costs down and avoid the uncanny valley.

    No idea what this statement even means. Seems obvious the development team doesn't believe they have performance problems with their engine; although a good portion of thier client base is saying just the opposite.
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  2. #32
    Champion of Telara Leif's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mammothtruk View Post
    When the zone event boss is up and people are throwing spells and attacks the fps drags and latency increases. As soon as it dies fps goes back to normal and latency bounces back to what you would expect syncing with the server. I could see how that would be a server issue I guess. Off loading whatever can be offloaded to the client instead of the server would go a long way for sure, but why NOT have multicore support for smoother gameplay overall? Its a simple matter of compiling and debugging that should have been done from the beginning. We have had 2+ cores for how long now? If opening the client to 4 cores would increase performance by 20% it should be done. Ill take another 10+ fps in the worst case and 20+ in the best.
    When many people are attacking a single target, there is a lag issue, possibly related to a massive amount of data having to be passed to a hundred clients about debuffs/damage/etc. It's not client CPU/GPU related, because if you detarget the lone enemy, lag becomes noticably better.

    I mean, there are plenty actual rendering problems with the game, but this isn't one of them, and I think it has a lot to do with what Trion's servers can handle CPU wise.
    Last edited by Leif; 01-08-2013 at 10:07 AM.
    Waiting for Wildstar...

  3. #33
    Telaran Mammothtruk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leif View Post
    When many people are attacking a single target, there is a lag issue, possibly related to a massive amount of data having to be passed to a hundred clients about debuffs/damage/etc. It's not client CPU/GPU related, because if you detarget the lone enemy, lag becomes noticably better.

    I mean, there are plenty actual rendering problems with the game, but this isn't one of them, and I think it has a lot to do with what Trion's servers can handle CPU wise.
    While I already agreed that sometimes the issue is the server there is still no good reason NOT to increase client side performance. If some of the serverside calculations were moved over to the client it would mean less data being sent which would improve gameplay and reduce server load. If instead of 40fps I could have 50fps by improved client side computation power why wouldnt I want that? If you can improve performance why wouldnt you want to do that?

    And no de-targetting the boss doesnt appear to improve the problem. I have to banner a good 60 meters away or guildies crash trying to port in. As I said before... yes it very well could be a server side issue but why? Increase the server clusters performance then. Why have something vital in the game like the zone events and have them run so badly?

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mammothtruk View Post
    While I already agreed that sometimes the issue is the server there is still no good reason NOT to increase client side performance. If some of the serverside calculations were moved over to the client it would mean less data being sent which would improve gameplay and reduce server load. If instead of 40fps I could have 50fps by improved client side computation power why wouldnt I want that? If you can improve performance why wouldnt you want to do that?

    And no de-targetting the boss doesnt appear to improve the problem. I have to banner a good 60 meters away or guildies crash trying to port in. As I said before... yes it very well could be a server side issue but why? Increase the server clusters performance then. Why have something vital in the game like the zone events and have them run so badly?
    I don't think allowing clients to calculate anything is a good idea. Having one source of the truth at the server is the only way to go. Even if the client did the calc wouldn't the server still need to do them as well? I think so.

    Again, some guru should do a performance analysis on exactly whats happening and why and then we can all stop guessing

    Am I the only one who noticed a very significant improvement in lag a couple hotfixes ago for this problem?
    Last edited by Hydron; 01-08-2013 at 10:57 AM. Reason: typo

  5. #35
    Ascendant the_real_seebs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mammothtruk View Post
    When the zone event boss is up and people are throwing spells and attacks the fps drags and latency increases. As soon as it dies fps goes back to normal and latency bounces back to what you would expect syncing with the server. I could see how that would be a server issue I guess.
    I am about 85% sure it's not the server, for a few reasons.

    The main reasons:

    1. Plugging and unplugging network cable has no effect. So it's really hard to believe it's in any way related to network data.
    2. Looking at per-core CPU usage, GPU usage, and so on, it's pretty obvious that Rift's single "main thread" is running 100% of the time. There's nothing you can do to make that faster without splitting some tasks out of that thread -- which is a Very Hard problem, which is why it hasn't already happened.
    3. GPU goes to nearly-idle, CPU usage stays roughly pegged.

    If it were really waiting on the server in some way, I'd expect to see a massive decline in CPU utilization.

    So my guess is: The server is sending instructions for "do these animations and spell effects". The CPU is then doing the actual heavy lifting -- and doing it all in one thread, which is why it's slow even on systems with plenty of extra cores.
    You can play WoW in any MMO. You don't have to play WoW in RIFT. Oh, and no, RIFT is not a WoW clone. Not having fun any more? Learn to play, noob! I don't speak for Riftui, but I moderate stuff there. Just came back? Welcome back! Here's what's changed. (Updated for 2.5!)

  6. #36
    Rift Master Beringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianMorin View Post
    With all the recent drama thought I'd post a proof-of-life. Been working on Defiance for nearly a year now and have been able to make a pretty big impact there helping with the transition from project to product.



    What would you do with significantly more client side computation power?
    We're already seeing the art side in the industry get more and more stylized to keep production costs down and avoid the uncanny valley.
    Here are some recent ideas for you:

    Unreal Engine 3: Samaritan Demo
    Unreal Engine 4: Elemental Demo

    I'm an altoholic: Thirteen 60 clerics, eleven 60 rogues, eleven 60 warriors, five 60 mages, etc...

  7. #37
    Champion Turrant's Avatar
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    I am sure some people here don't know what the uncanny valley is. I am sure most experienced gamers who take an active approach to their games (aka, just about everyone one this forum) will know what it is. It took me a couple minutes to remember it myself but to save some people the headache I will try to explain...but if you have 7 minutes to spare this video shows it better than I can.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKTAJ...layer_embedded

    Basically, adding lifelike, human characteristics to things that are obviously not human will increase its appeal to a greater audience however, after a certain point it takes a sudden turn as something becomes too human or life like that it makes the obviously not human idea that makes every flaw of not being human becoming prominent. if you make a hyper realistic video game and have just a little bit of minor clipping here or there it destroys in part the realism of the game yet in an animated/stylized game it becomes more acceptable to people so long as it is not major. Just one of many details that would have to be absolutly nailed in better/realistic graphics. The video begins applying it to robots, which is a good analogy that the video will help to explain through visual examples which is more difficult to concisely explain here.

    The middle area between obviously not human/realistic and obviously human/realistic is what is known as the "Uncanny Valley" because visual appeal takes a huge drop. This area could be described as "Obviously supposed to be human/realistic but tiny errors stick out everywhere like a sore thumb" which makes for an unpleasant play experience.

    Basically Brian is pointing out that video games as a whole have reached a point where if they increase graphic quality requirements that it must be through making more stylized works in an attempt to avoid this valley. It is incredibly less expensive and time consuming to avoid trying to go past that valley and just stick on the stylized side of human like elements. In effect, I think Brian largely was talking about the client side (aka your computer) ability to process and render graphics. I do agree that there may be some ineffiencies that exist on the client side of Rift though but I can not comment on those as I don't understand the relationship between the CPU the GPU etc.

    While I have seen it explained it did not really stick but it is a topic of study that I have been wanting to investigate in on my own for some time now as I will need to know it well for when I upgrade my computer on my own with out my techy dad's help. As far as it is the roles are little bit reversed in my family, my father knows a lot about computer end stuff as he has built his own pcs for himself and others for a long time. I am currently self teaching myself physics (mostly the quantum and theoretical kind) programming on a mac using C objective (help appreciated) and have been dabbling into map making/design using the Starcraft 2 editor the past few days when I get a chance outside of my IB diploma high school classes...I am a junior now and still have absolutely no clue what I want to major in college. I have always wanted to learn more about video games and coding (hence why it is more of a focus on learning on my own) yet theoretical physics has me gripped and so has chemistry (thinking about biochemical engineering).

    Of course, nothing new to me, I rambled on like I usually do in open discussion through keyboard typing and got horribly side tracked. Not going to go through and edit myself this time.

  8. #38
    General of Telara livnthedream's Avatar
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    Well aware of the uncanny valley. Can you honestly say that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gf26ZhHz6uM does not go a VERY long way towards alleviating that though? The cloth modelling in that snippet is run via Apex (an extension of PhysX), which has seen drastic improvements since that was created, and games are taking more and more advantage of it. Going all the way back to Arkham Asylum its been used to varying degrees, with newer games like Planetside 2, Hawken and Warframe really leading the pack in what it can do. Carbon is the "skin" animation. It really specializes in soft body realistic modelling, which is for the most part a CCP exclusive, but you cannot argue that it is not extremely impressive.
    "I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won."

  9. #39
    General of Telara Asaomar's Avatar
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    I plan on giving Defiance a solid try once the game goes live. I'm liking the test version of it, but I don't know how much things will change once a much much larger crowd is on playing.
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  10. #40
    Rift Disciple Ovdisaier's Avatar
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    I am very intrigued by the prospect of Elder Scrolls Online. I absolutely loved Skyrim and Oblivion and since WarhammerOnline I'd love to see another game with castle siege warfare pvp which ESO will have so... I'm hoping for the best for this game because I'm really looking forward to getting back into this world and also to get back my favorite type of pvp.
    I'm also curious about Defiance

  11.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #41
    Rift Team BrianMorin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antigonos View Post
    thats not a client issue ... and i think that is was brian was pointing at.
    Sorta. New devices, business models and social changes are at least as interesting as changes to PC client hardware.

    The core challenge with Zone Events is that as you stack actors in the same spot, the amount of (server) computation you need to do to run the game simulation increases non-linearly because of the need to notify other actors and potentially trigger responses.

    There are a lot of tricks you can do to mitigate this (and Rift does a heck of a lot of them!), but at some point you just get crushed by big numbers. Rift really pushes that envelope because zone events are fun and fun is super-important.

    That's not to say there may or may not be client issues. I've been out of the loop for a long time. But that's the fundamental challenge you need to deal with in Zone events. Particularly as you add bells and whistles to the game, you run the risk of one of your new toys unexpectedly behaving badly when lots of stuff is going on in the same spot.
    Last edited by BrianMorin; 01-09-2013 at 11:34 PM.

  12. #42
    Champion minipara's Avatar
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    Honestly I don't see anything good coming soon.
    TESO will flop like SWTOR did and Rift will last much more than expected

  13.   This is the last Rift Team post in this thread.   #43
    Rift Team BrianMorin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by livnthedream View Post
    Well aware of the uncanny valley. Can you honestly say that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gf26ZhHz6uM does not go a VERY long way towards alleviating that though?
    Amazing video. Thanks for sharing.

    The faces kinda weirded me out though :-P

  14. #44
    Ascendant Primalthirst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianMorin View Post
    Amazing video. Thanks for sharing.

    The faces kinda weirded me out though :-P
    Agreed, faces were a little off somehow. But damn the cloth and hair was amazing, especially since it's from 2010!
    Nope.

  15. #45
    Ascendant Pixel Monkey's Avatar
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    great posts in this thread
    check out this report from euclideon
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00gAbgBu8R4
    who took my names!

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