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Thread: Any armchair astronomers/cosmologists here?

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    Prophet of Telara Neo Omni's Avatar
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    Default Any armchair astronomers/cosmologists here?

    When I was a kid the question of whether the universe would continue expanding or eventually stop expanding and contract was up in the air.

    Recently I saw some news that says the universe is not only expanding, but accelerating in its expansion. So not only is there no slowdown by gravity, but something seems to be pushing everything away at a faster rate.

    I'm not a physicists, just a science hobbyist and relatively well read. So I started speculating on what would cause such a thing to happen.

    I feel we do not fully understand the nature of gravity at its extremes. I'm not a proponent of "dark matter" theory...it just comes across as an attempt to fill in a blank with an unknown variable that cant be tested. But given that the known universe behaves as though it has more matter in it than what it actually has (or is visible), just underscores my belief that there is a lot about gravity on the very large (and small) scale that we just dont know about.

    I dont think many things in mathematics can be applied to the real world. Einstein's theories bring in concepts like "infinity" to real world scenarios, but I have always felt that there is no such thing as "infinity" in the real world.

    For example; the acceleration of a body towards the speed of light will increase its mass. The faster, the more the increase until eventually you hit infinite mass which is why sub-light matter can not travel faster than light. Matter )and space) in and of itself may have properties that may break down, that prevent it from reaching these "infinites" and thus change the rules of the game at these extreme states.

    Given there is a relationship between mass and gravity (the more mass the higher the gravity), gravity itself may break down at these "infinity" extremes and begin to behave in strange manners...maybe even becoming "anti-gravity." Mathematically speaking, just how close can you come down to "zero" before you cross over into negative numbers? In math you can add an infinte number of decimal points but how does that translate into the real world? If at all.

    So if the acceleration of the universe is actually an anti-gravity force, then I believe the nature of gravity does change at extremes. Either that or there is nothing "pushing" the universe out at all but rather something "pulling" it. If that is the case then the big bang was not necessarily an internal expansion/explosion but rather the ripping apart of this singularity by unknowns.

    Feel free to elaborate on your ideas.


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    XiL
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    Stupidity combined with human nature build a picture of the universe that revolves around creationism and a finite time table causes roadblocks in these kinds of theories.

    Its more likely that the big bang was an exploding super massive black hole that reached critical mass and expanded a pre-existing universe so rapidly (faster than the speed of light) that the trailing gravity from that surrounding universe mass is accelerating the expansion of mass in our visible universe.

    Its similar to how foam in liquid will attach itself to the outside of a container and begin pulling smaller clumps of foam towards that outer ring. Our visible universe is a small clump of foam in the middle of a vast liquid. The explosion of a super massive black hole pushed the larger body of foam away and now our mass is being attracted through the gap in space time towards the rest of the actual universe.

    Hopefully sometime next year it will be proven that the speed of light is not a universal constant and all those dark energy/matter theories, and big bang creationist delusions, are useless and we can move on to actual science again rather than shining up poo and claiming its chocolate pudding.
    Last edited by XiL; 10-05-2011 at 01:21 PM.
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    Prophet of Telara Neo Omni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XiL View Post
    Its more likely that the big bang was an exploding super massive black hole that reached critical mass and expanded a pre-existing universe so rapidly (faster than the speed of light) that the trailing gravity from that surrounding universe mass is accelerating the expansion of mass in our visible universe.
    There are a number of theorists that go along with this idea. Mainly because the singularity and surrounding conditions in a black hole resemble the conditions of the early universe at the moment of "big bang."

    Popular science fiction has painted black holes as these funnel shaped objects in space when in reality a black hole resemble nothing of the sort. It would be better termed a "black ball" with a distortion around its edge due to the massive gravity. I am one of those that believes there is a correlation between black holes and our universe...or universes. For all we know, they may be self contained universes altogether.

    Consider this little mind trip:

    When an object falls into a black hole, the "time/clock" for that object slows down and eventually "stops" at the event horizon. If we were to get past the point where time stops all together and continue on our journey down the black hole, eventually we have time running backwards (negative time).

    Consider an observer in the black hole itself witnessing this. All he would see is this object appearing in his universe running backwards in time, and because it is running backwards in time (relative to him) it would not be falling in but rather, accelerating out...like watching a movie backwards.

    So we have all this matter "accelerating out" of his universe, or rather, making his universe appear as if it were expanding....kind'a like our own.

    I know there are a lot of holes in that little story, but I beleive our universe is a black hole in another universe, and for all we know, they may continue nested in each other forever. If there are alternate universes, that is where they may lay.
    Last edited by Neo Omni; 10-05-2011 at 03:10 PM.


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    aux
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    Is it really expanding, though? Let's go over and have a look.
    I'm so BORED

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    According to Einstein.

    The faster you travel, (almost speed of Light), the faster you can travel in time, so if i jump in a rocket ship, fly to Jupiter, and back to earth, at speed of light.
    it's posable I (person and Rocket) aged only few mins in time, while Earth is year's past.

    same go's for slowing down time, If you compress Atoms, so much like say a black hole.
    you can almost set time still, (only counts inside the black hole) outside Time will just continue.

    I think Einstein, sudden have called it, time Manipulation.

    as for Universe expansion, it's a proven fact, and indeed go's faster.
    I think the Universe, is better to understand as a Elasticity force.

    but to keep it real, it's just pass Human Understanding, it's like try to let a dog talk, can't be done.

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    Prophet of Telara Sarablu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo Omni View Post

    When an object falls into a black hole, the "time/clock" for that object slows down and eventually "stops" at the event horizon. If we were to get past the point where time stops all together and continue on our journey down the black hole, eventually we have time running backwards (negative time).

    I know there are a lot of holes in that little story,
    More than a lot of "little" holes. You have a contradiction in your primary premise.

    Getting "past a point" to continue on your journey is a function of time. If time has "stopped altogether", there is no getting past a point and continuing.
    Cogito Ergo Femina Sum

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    Prophet of Telara Neo Omni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarablu View Post
    More than a lot of "little" holes. You have a contradiction in your primary premise.

    Getting "past a point" to continue on your journey is a function of time. If time has "stopped altogether", there is no getting past a point and continuing.
    Time has stopped for the traveler, but not for an outside observer. All matter getting sucked into a black hole will go through this scenario yet it still gets sucked in from an outside observers point of view even thought the "time" for that matter has stopped .

    In other words, a clock falling into a black hole will continue ticking from it's own vantage point. From an outside observer's point of view, it looks like it is slowing down and eventually stop but that doesn't stop it from falling in.

    Relatively speaking, if you were to fall into a black hole you would not notice your time slowing down but rather observe the time of the surrounding universe speeding up.

    At the point that your "time" stops, the time of the surrounding universe would have become infinitely fast.

    It's all relative....and quite a head trip.
    Last edited by Neo Omni; 10-12-2011 at 07:53 AM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by abisha View Post
    According to Einstein.

    The faster you travel, (almost speed of Light), the faster you can travel in time, so if i jump in a rocket ship, fly to Jupiter, and back to earth, at speed of light.
    it's posable I (person and Rocket) aged only few mins in time, while Earth is year's past.

    same go's for slowing down time, If you compress Atoms, so much like say a black hole.
    you can almost set time still, (only counts inside the black hole) outside Time will just continue.
    .
    that Einstein theory is a load of crap.
    I seen examples of it. Its flawed because they never count the starting time, and the time of end contact.

    I saw an example in physics class with a space ship, it had to fly to a location 1 light hour away and back. and each 15 minutes a light signal traveling at the same speed would be sent from the earth.
    they count how many signals hit the ship before reaching back to earth.

    the theorist point out that 1 signal would be missing, basically proving that time has changed. But what I noticed is that they fail to count the last signal because it his instantly the ship arrives back on earth.
    (similar to how 11:59:999 pm, and a millisecond next its a new day, at 12:00 which excludes the 12:00 right at 12:00)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo Omni View Post
    Time has stopped for the traveler, but not for an outside observer. All matter getting sucked into a black hole will go through this scenario yet it still gets sucked in from an outside observers point of view even thought the "time" for that matter has stopped .

    In other words, a clock falling into a black hole will continue ticking from it's own vantage point. From an outside observer's point of view, it looks like it is slowing down and eventually stop but that doesn't stop it from falling in.

    Relatively speaking, if you were to fall into a black hole you would not notice your time slowing down but rather observe the time of the surrounding universe speeding up.

    At the point that your "time" stops, the time of the surrounding universe would have become infinitely fast.

    It's all relative....and quite a head trip.
    can you prove this?

    I mean, you seem to be throwing this around like fact.

    You seem to know a lot about gravity.

    so can you prove to me that the Moon causes the waves in the Ocean? I was taught that in school, but later found out, that it is a theory that was never proven. so maybe you can prove it.

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    Prophet of Telara Neo Omni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tro44 View Post
    that Einstein theory is a load of crap.
    I seen examples of it. Its flawed because they never count the starting time, and the time of end contact.

    I saw an example in physics class with a space ship, it had to fly to a location 1 light hour away and back. and each 15 minutes a light signal traveling at the same speed would be sent from the earth.
    they count how many signals hit the ship before reaching back to earth.

    the theorist point out that 1 signal would be missing, basically proving that time has changed. But what I noticed is that they fail to count the last signal because it his instantly the ship arrives back on earth.
    (similar to how 11:59:999 pm, and a millisecond next its a new day, at 12:00 which excludes the 12:00 right at 12:00)

    Light/electromagnetic radiation is not affected by acceleration/time dilation.

    It remains constant in all these scenarios regardless of observer or viewpoint. As for Eisntein's theory being "crap," it has already been proven with satelites using atomic clocks. Gravitational fields or acceleration does affect the flow of time for the object in motion.

    Quote Originally Posted by tro44 View Post
    can you prove this?

    I mean, you seem to be throwing this around like fact.

    You seem to know a lot about gravity.

    so can you prove to me that the Moon causes the waves in the Ocean? I was taught that in school, but later found out, that it is a theory that was never proven. so maybe you can prove it.
    Again, I dont have to prove it. It has been proven mathematically and in experiment with satellites and atomic clocks not to mention observation of black holes by astronomers.

    Can you prove to me that the sun doesn't go around the earth?
    Last edited by Neo Omni; 10-12-2011 at 08:37 AM.


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    Plane Touched Taemien's Avatar
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    Light/electromagnetic radiation is not affected by acceleration/time dilation.

    It remains constant in all these scenarios regardless of observer or viewpoint. As for Eisntein's theory being "crap," it has already been proven with satelites using atomic clocks. Gravitational fields or acceleration does affect the flow of time for the object in motion.
    The Electromagnetic Spectrum is affected by gravity and many other things. This I know because of the amplification we had to use to shoot to a Geo-Synchronous Satellite while I was in the Army in Satellite Communications.

    Einstiens Theory is well a theory. One that is going to be disproven very soon. There has been particles recorded recently that do in fact move faster then light and do not attain a mass of infinity.

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    Prophet of Telara Neo Omni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tro44 View Post
    so can you prove to me that the Moon causes the waves in the Ocean? I was taught that in school, but later found out, that it is a theory that was never proven. so maybe you can prove it.
    See : Occam's Razor


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    Quote Originally Posted by Taemien View Post
    The Electromagnetic Spectrum is affected by gravity and many other things. This I know because of the amplification we had to use to shoot to a Geo-Synchronous Satellite while I was in the Army in Satellite Communications.
    I said acceleration, not gravity. The speed of light remains the same to an observer regardless of whether he is moving towards or away from it. It doesn't become faster moving towards it, or slower moving away from it. As for the spectrum, yes..that is affected causing doppler shifts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taemien View Post
    Einstiens Theory is well a theory. One that is going to be disproven very soon. There has been particles recorded recently that do in fact move faster then light and do not attain a mass of infinity.
    There is a class of theoretical particles that supposedly travel faster than light or exist only in the faster-than-light realm. They dont fall under the category of ordinary matter because (supposedly) if these particles decelerate to sub-light speed, then they cease to exist (negative mass?).

    It is not a matter of proving Einstein's theories right or wrong. They have been proven correct, but there are elements in our universe that undoubtedly ignore these theories, and these elements tend to fall outside the realm of what is understood as "normal" matter and energy...yet are still part of our universe.
    Last edited by Neo Omni; 10-12-2011 at 09:06 AM.


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    Well, actually, the universe is now considered to be expanding at a constant rate, basically. The thing is, let's say any given distance, due to expansion of space, double in 1 million years. So after 1 billiomillionn years 1 light year becomes 2. After another million years, obviously, 2 light years become 4. That looks like the universe were expanding faster in that second million years, but it isn't. It's just that we cannot measure expansion of space directly, but only distance and movement of objects (via redshift).
    The Wardisitor - because sometimes you just can't decide!

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    Prophet of Telara Neo Omni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mephane View Post
    Well, actually, the universe is now considered to be expanding at a constant rate, basically. The thing is, let's say any given distance, due to expansion of space, double in 1 million years. So after 1 billiomillionn years 1 light year becomes 2. After another million years, obviously, 2 light years become 4. That looks like the universe were expanding faster in that second million years, but it isn't. It's just that we cannot measure expansion of space directly, but only distance and movement of objects (via redshift).
    I dont understand your premise.

    A light year is the distance light travels in one year. Wouldnt that remain the same regardless of the size of the universe?


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