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Thread: Would you play a mmorpg with the difficulty of Demon's Souls/Dark Souls?

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    Ascendant tro44's Avatar
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    Default Would you play a mmorpg with the difficulty of Demon's Souls/Dark Souls?

    I was reading this thread over on MMORPG.com

    I notice a lot of people seem interested in Demon Soul's harsh sequel.

    but something I have to ask you people. Is Demon Soul/ Dark Soul really hard at all?

    think about it, before you answer (iam not trying to troll your fanboysim)

    but Without the Harsh Death Penalty, what is left of the game? would it still be hard?

    doesnt seem like it.

    its sad really, that the only thing this game brings to the table is its harsh death penalty. I played other RPGs that didnt have such a harsh DP, yet they were awesome because they had actual interesting gameplay features, not just a gimmick like a penalty for death from 2/3 shotting npc.

    From my point of view, this game lacks good development decisions.
    Developers seem more interested in Frustrating their players rather than entertaining them. I seen this from their interviews as well.

    I believe many people confuse "Frustration" with "Difficulty".

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    Its not frustration that makes DS hard, its the fact that you have to litterally memorize entire levels, npcs pathing, and knowing how to fight every enemy perfectly, and then take on a boss that requries a very specific method to kill, combined with a death penalty and levels that completely respawn when you 'leave' and 'come back'.

    Imagine Diablo 2, if everytime you TP'd back home, to buy more pots, sell loot, if the entire dungeon repopped on you? And instead of porting you back to where you left off from it put you back at the beggining of the level.

    And you can't say the game only has a 'gimmick' of a hard death penalty, the very combat is completely different. Take examples of say, devils may cry, god of war, Compared to DS, you just spam buttons in those games, where as DS you have to be conservative in your actions.

    Do you hit the enemy 5 times with small hits? Leaving you ample room to dodge if needed or even block/parry? Or do you hit them really hard,2 shotting the enemy, but leave your self wide open for counter-attack and takes longer to recover/dodge/block?

    What makes DS a GREAT game is that when you actually defeat a level, and this is something ALOT of games fail on, is that the gameplay IS in defeating a level and not how flashy the kill moves are, you actually get that feeling of ACOMPLISHMENT when you finish a level, defeat that boss/encounter.

    Think back to your mmo expereience.
    Were you ever on the raid when your guild downed a tough boss for the FIRST time?
    You know that feeling you get?
    Thats the feeling you get, everytime you beat a level in DS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tro44 View Post
    I believe many people confuse "Frustration" with "Difficulty".
    This is very true.

    Much of the rhetoric in threads such the the "death of a genre" thread on here, referring to games like EQ, certainly considers time-consuming mindless repetition as being 'hard', when the only thing that's 'hard' about it is maintaining interest, and the only 'challenge' is finding the perseverance to carry on hitting one's head against a brick wall.

    They talk about the old games with loving affection, how hard they were when it took umpteen hours and days to get a level, losing XP on death makes it 'hard': when in fact all it was in reality was a horrendously long time-sink doing things 1000s of times when doing them 100s of times was enough to prove anything.
    Last edited by Kerin; 10-04-2011 at 04:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerin View Post
    This is very true.

    Much of the rhetoric in threads such the the "death of a genre" thread on here, referring to games like EQ, certainly considers time-consuming mindless repetition as being 'hard', when the only thing that's 'hard' about it is maintaining interest, and the only 'challenge' is finding the perseverance to carry on hitting one's head against a brick wall.

    They talk about the old games with loving affection, how hard they were when it took umpteen hours and days to get a level, losing XP on death makes it 'hard': when in fact all it was in reality was a horrendously long time-sink doing things 1000s of times when doing them 100s of times was enough to prove anything.
    You are forgetting one thing.

    If death has a Penalty, be it in a single player game as a Reload, or an mmorpg as a XP sink, it accomplishes something that Rift doesn't have.

    A reason NOT to die.
    Imagine raiding in Rift, if you lost 10% of your xp? (and say, even with a rez it would give back 99% of that back) if the raid goes bad, just wipe it until you get it right. Why not? Its not like dieing is going to screw anything up.
    Sure you get that bad debuff if you die to often, but who doesn't have a Medic?
    If you are afraid to die, because Dieing has a consequence, it CHANGES your play style. You become more cautious, and when backed into a corner you just don't lay down and take it, you fight back, and your blood starts pumping.

    That is the difference.

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    Champion faye007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerin View Post
    This is very true.

    Much of the rhetoric in threads such the the "death of a genre" thread on here, referring to games like EQ, certainly considers time-consuming mindless repetition as being 'hard', when the only thing that's 'hard' about it is maintaining interest, and the only 'challenge' is finding the perseverance to carry on hitting one's head against a brick wall.

    They talk about the old games with loving affection, how hard they were when it took umpteen hours and days to get a level, losing XP on death makes it 'hard': when in fact all it was in reality was a horrendously long time-sink doing things 1000s of times when doing them 100s of times was enough to prove anything.
    What does it for you is not neccesarily everyone elses cup of tea. What you find frustrating, someone else will find interesting, or challenging etc. We are not all the same and this is why variety is good. Debating back and forth about whether something is good or challenging, hard or repetative is an opinion and as such, no conclusion can ever be made.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SinisterDeath View Post
    You are forgetting one thing.

    If death has a Penalty, be it in a single player game as a Reload, or an mmorpg as a XP sink, it accomplishes something that Rift doesn't have.

    A reason NOT to die.
    Imagine raiding in Rift, if you lost 10% of your xp? (and say, even with a rez it would give back 99% of that back) if the raid goes bad, just wipe it until you get it right. Why not? Its not like dieing is going to screw anything up.
    Sure you get that bad debuff if you die to often, but who doesn't have a Medic?
    If you are afraid to die, because Dieing has a consequence, it CHANGES your play style. You become more cautious, and when backed into a corner you just don't lay down and take it, you fight back, and your blood starts pumping.

    That is the difference.
    Actually, my experience in a game with what was considered to have a fairly harsh death penalty for many years, FFXI (XP loss, deleveling), is that it simply breeds a lack of desire to 'adventure', to try new things, because the price of failure is too harsh, people were more happy to stick to the tried-and-tested ways of doing things because it was safer: take away the severe penalty like XP loss and people are prepared to take chances.

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    Never heard that game but I've always supported death penalty. There needs to be concequences if you die, one thing what Aion did right but yeah they changed it later. Also I really look forward D3 perma-death servers hopefully they are there like in D2. Darkfall's full PVP full loot was real thrill, loved it. Also I like to play Civilization without saving etc.
    Last edited by June; 10-04-2011 at 05:28 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerin View Post
    Actually, my experience in a game with what was considered to have a fairly harsh death penalty for many years, FFXI (XP loss, deleveling), is that it simply breeds a lack of desire to 'adventure', to try new things, because the price of failure is too harsh, people were more happy to stick to the tried-and-tested ways of doing things because it was safer: take away the severe penalty like XP loss and people are prepared to take chances.
    Risk vs Reward.

    No risk little reward.
    HUGE Risk, Huge reward.

    In rift?
    No risk, tiny rewards dished out in dripping intervals.

    In ds, you get not just an ingame reward but a mental reward thru dopamines and the rush from adrenaline from taking on the big bad bosses and winning.

    And yea, its all oppinion but unless yoou actually beat a boss in DS you have no ground to stand on when it comes to risk/reward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SinisterDeath View Post
    And yea, its all oppinion but unless yoou actually beat a boss in DS you have no ground to stand on when it comes to risk/reward.
    I don't need a 'ground to stand on', I'm not the one swinging his e-peen around over something as meaningless as 'risk/reward' in a video game.

  10. #10
    Sword of Telara DepricatedZero's Avatar
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    I played an MMO with a vicious death penalty for 10 years. I don't think it's valid to say they don't exist.

    People are just too scared of penalties these days that death is candied and penalties are...laughable.

    I remember when I first realized how harsh the death penalty in the above mentioned game could be when I died, released, and lost my character permanently - along with everything he had, which was a considerable amount of coin and hard to obtain gear.

    By comparison, 1 plat for a fully damaged soul repair...is lulz
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  11. #11
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    Demon's Souls is wholly responsible for one broken PS3 controller. That game wasn't hard, it was a tedious exercise in memorization and repetition.

    Also, it sucks.

  12. #12
    Sword of Telara
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    Demon Souls is probably the best console game I have ever played.

    That said, it would probably not succeed in an MMO setting. The difficulty level is too high for the average person playing MMOs who has been spoilt by easy to play games like WoW and Rift. Instant gratification is what gamers require nowadays to make themselves feel good.

    MMO's require subscriptions to survive. By tweaking the game whereby only 5% of the MMO crowd would succeed is financial suicide.
    Last edited by Blackblade; 10-07-2011 at 01:01 AM.

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    Rift Disciple DOOM420's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerin View Post
    I don't need a 'ground to stand on', I'm not the one swinging his e-peen around over something as meaningless as 'risk/reward' in a video game.
    Spoken like someone who plays game on "easy" with the "god mode" cheat code put in.

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