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Thread: I'm curious.. Why?

  1. #16
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfetx View Post
    Hey now rangers had there purpose!
    Everyone knows you can not get good loot until you sacrifice the ranger!
    LOL!

    LF Ranger Sacrifice! PST!

  2. #17
    Ascendant titansgrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfetx View Post
    Odd my memory must be faulty. I was under the impression that eq was responsible for the holy trinity Warrior+Cleric+Enchanter (tank+heals+support)(dps was not part of the original trinity).
    WOW broke that in a way by taking out the support and giving the support abilities to the dps classes.
    Making for a new trinity of tank, heals dps.
    Yea, this is actually what happened. This coupled with speed of combat in the vanilla Warcraft were the turning point in modern MMO design.

    The most immediately striking thing about original WOW was the much faster paced combat than in other MMOs. A lot of the game design intelligentsia of the industry cites the "feel" of Warcraft's combat as the hidden factor in it's success and the downfall of also-rans since.

    Naturally there were other things WoW did that broke MMOs for casuals. Though the shift of a DPS included holy trinity and less mushy combat were the masterstrokes of Blizzard.

    Bliz actually are the very top tier developers in the industry. Whoever said they were second rate is essentially being spiteful rather than accurate.



    DISCLAIMER: I am not saying Warcraft is more awesome than your fav game. Nor am I saying WOW created these modern conventions wholly. That's an argument for another topic.

    What I am saying, definitively, is that Blizzard have nailed the designed of World of Warcraft flawlessly. So much so that (regardless of one's personal dislikes) WOW is the industry standard of the genre. For better or worse, natch.
    Last edited by titansgrip; 08-09-2011 at 08:09 AM.

  3. #18
    Plane Touched Luhgnut's Avatar
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    Here's the real problem..... You can queue up as support, and push a few buttons, and put some dps down and nobody will say anything. But if the healer can't heal the tank, and everybody else that does stupid stuff, people rage on them. Same with a Tank. A bad Tank makes for a Bad healer.

    I've healed dungeons with a tank that wouldn't slow down to recharge mana, and wipe us. and of COURSE it was my fault.

    so why does anyone want to queue up to be screamed at by the rest of the group. Same people that scream at the tanks and healers, don't play one themselves.

  4. #19
    Shield of Telara Adebar's Avatar
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    http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-gam...healing-death/ I give you, GW2's system.

    I'd read the whole thing, but you can scroll down and read the stop under the first comic.
    127% of internet statistics are made up on the spot.

    Never trust obscure quotes from famous people on the internet. -George Washington

  5. #20
    Prophet of Telara Erszebet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rydeson View Post
    Why? just Why did you (Trion) use the holy trinity knowing all the issues with it?
    Because they knew people like me wouldn't want to play their game otherwise. There is no problem with the trinity system. Either love it or leave it.
    Last edited by Erszebet; 08-09-2011 at 09:05 AM.
    Everyone wants an

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfetx View Post
    I also have no issue with every one getting a trophy. I think its a wonderful concept even in the real life version.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rydeson View Post
    However, over the years that has mutated into the holy trinity as the primary formula for combat, and for the life of me, I don't know why.. In fact I find it one of the worst designs in modern day MMO's.. It hamstrings the community into "required" roles to be successful, and in many cases it just makes those roles too much of a task that the average gamer doesn't enjoy playing.. SO.. WHY?
    Because it enforces interdependency and diversity in play styles, and without that you end up with what you have in games that don't require it -- Fallen Earth and Champions Online (the former having no trinity, the latter having no real need of one, though it exists technically) being two -- where group content is rarely done or, when it is, turns into nothing more than a zerg fest.

    Trion went with the trinity because no one has come with anything that even comes close to replacing it and excising it wholly may please some of the player base at the start, but in the end leads to crappy games that rapidly go FtP -- the fate of every game so far that has done so.

    Interdependency is the basis of a group game, without it being forced by design it doesn't and won't exist. The trinity forces that interdependency in a manageable way that no other system has yet come close to matching.

  7. #22
    Sword of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by EranB View Post
    Let me assure you, you do NOT want to go back to how it was in EQ.

    Sure, it's funny/odd, how a game as diverse as Rift, with the amazing soul system and how you can play your character in so many different ways, that you're still having to use the same group forumla of tank+heal+support/dps - but the thing is, no one has been able to find a better one.
    I would love to go back to how it was in EQ, including the spawncamping and rushes of raidbosses etc.

  8. #23
    Shield of Telara Vinge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myria View Post
    Because it enforces interdependency and diversity in play styles, and without that you end up with what you have in games that don't require it -- Fallen Earth and Champions Online (the former having no trinity, the latter having no real need of one, though it exists technically) being two -- where group content is rarely done or, when it is, turns into nothing more than a zerg fest.

    Trion went with the trinity because no one has come with anything that even comes close to replacing it and excising it wholly may please some of the player base at the start, but in the end leads to crappy games that rapidly go FtP -- the fate of every game so far that has done so.

    Interdependency is the basis of a group game, without it being forced by design it doesn't and won't exist. The trinity forces that interdependency in a manageable way that no other system has yet come close to matching.
    I completely agree that interdependency is essential in a group game, but there are other ways of achieving it beside the tank/healer idea.

    I go back to EQ again where it was perfectly possible to put together a viable group using only dps characters, e.g. doing a kite group where the use of various snares/fear meant that the mobs never actually hit anyone. No tanks or healers necessary, but it still relied on players working together.

    Sure, EQ relied on the tank/healer/enchanter trinity for a lot of group content, but it also included other group content that allowed for other options. The problem with all group content being based around 5 man instances means that this doesnt allow for other group set up options.

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