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Thread: Instances Killed this Genre

  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romiz View Post
    Instance been with RPGs for over 20 years. So if your statement is true how come 100s of millions play them.
    ????? 20 years? Can I get a verification on that please.. TY

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rydeson View Post
    WoW.. that is like telling someone, "if you don't have time to play 18 holes of golf, you need to find a new hobby, because we don't allow 9 holes of play"........ /boggled
    If that meant golf courses no longer made 18 hole golf courses than that's exactly right.

    Edit - I don't have time to play guitar for a band these days. That means, I'm not going to try to play in a band.

    I'm not going to demand that everyone listen to my crappy music and bring down the bar, or that my bandmates put up with my crappy play because I just don't have as much time to practice.
    Last edited by Snyrf; 08-04-2011 at 01:28 PM.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snyrf View Post
    The big boys are talking about mmos, not single player rpgs.

    In the early mmos, nothing was instanced. They were a "real world."
    Well guess what. The early days of mmo's are over and you can ether evolve with the genre or get left behind and be a bitter person.
    You dont have to like how mmo's have evolved you have the choice to not play them!
    God you sound like my father.. Sonny in my day we walked both ways up hill in the snow to go to our school.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doogan View Post
    What about making instanced dungeons that hold a certain number of people say when an instance reaches 100 people it creates another instance of that same dungeon for the next 100 and so on.

    This would still make players interact with eachother and give it that immersive feel but would this help with hardware issues, I don't know. Just a thought.
    What gameplay are you providing for those 100 people in the dungeon? Unless it's insanely enormous, you can't create an actual dungeon 'flow' for 100 people. Like in early EQ, when you had 70-80 people in the same dungeon zone, it inevitably degenerates into camping. Clusters of parties camping clusters of respawning mobs in designated 'camps.'

    As both SOE and Mythic realized about 8 years ago when they added instancing to their MMOs, having strictly shared dungeons just isn't feasible. They were obliged to introduce 'private party' dungeon content in order to give dungeon level design an actual flow, pacing and personality.

    Else it simply devolves into monotonous, static camping, because you can't possibly equip a dungeon with enough unique gameplay avenues for 70 people (besides targeted raid encounters within the same dungeon -- which prove to be another problem. Remember the insane performance drops in Ssra Temple with 3 guilds raiding the zone at once?).

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rydeson View Post
    WoW.. that is like telling someone, "if you don't have time to play 18 holes of golf, you need to find a new hobby, because we don't allow 9 holes of play"........ /boggled
    You do know there are actually TONS of courses that do this, right?

    And now imagine if there were NO 18 hole courses, only 9 hole ones. Having an 18 hole course is too expensive, and more people play 9 hole ones, so we'll just do that and rake in the cash.

    Oh, we'll also remove half of the sand traps, make all the greens flat and even, and get rid of the White tees. Everyone can just use the women's tee box.
    Last edited by Dro; 08-04-2011 at 01:54 PM.

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dro View Post
    You do know there are actually TONS of courses that do this, right?
    yep and there are far more that don't.. I'm not the one making the absolute statement.. it was someone else that said "if you don't have the time to raid, move on".. I'm just proving that statement isn't exactly kosher lol

  7. #247
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    Those talking about economics have hit the nail on the head. Modern corporate business plans revolve around attracting large numbers of consumers, and games are no exception.

    You probably won't see an old-style MMO unless some development company wants to try to make money by appealing to the population that wants that type of play. Now, there may be enough people to make that hypothetical game be more than a niche offering, but the numbers of players who played them compared to the number who play the modern games suggest otherwise.
    And thus I clothe my naked villainy
    With old odd ends, stol'n forth of holy writ;
    And seem a saint, when most I play the devil.-- William Shakespeare

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snyrf View Post
    If those people no longer have the time for this hobby, perhaps it is better that they move on to a new one rather than influence the core of the hobby to change.
    They might not have the time for maybe one specific aspect of the genre, which is raiding. People can still support the MMO genre without raiding. Asking them to leave entirely is both unrealistic and shortsighted. What do you think is closer to reality; one day becoming accountable or one day suddenly losing the urge to play MMOs entirely?

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfetx View Post
    Whats wrong with walmart? I happen to love walmart. Clearly a lot of people love walmart also since the parking lot is packed even at odd hours!
    Heeey, that's great. Let's make every shop called Wallmart and selling crap because you like it. Some people like quality you know?

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snyrf View Post
    If those people no longer have the time for this hobby, perhaps it is better that they move on to a new one rather than influence the core of the hobby to change.
    Except that's not how life works. People who no longer have time for a hobby have something else instead: money. And money buys things. It may not even be intentional, but the demographic with the most money will go on to influence the core of every hobby they pick up, simply because there is money to be made in catering to them. This is the reason why MMO's are becoming simpler and more streamlined. This is also the reason why Diablo 3 is going to have real-money auctions, respecs, and all the other convenience features.

    When I first picked up WoW many years ago, I was amazed at the ease with which you could just... play it. You didn't need to wait for your mana bars to creep back up, you had drinks for that. You didn't need a group to level, you could just go and kill stuff. You didn't need to get on a wait list to run a dungeon, you could just get a group and run it. Haven't played in a while? Here's some rest XP to get you going again. It's like Blizzard took away all the boring in-between and concentrated on the core goodness.

    And you know what attracted me to Rift? Aside from the cool soul mechanics and rifts, what really sold me is the perception that Trion didn't like wasting my time even more than Blizzard. Just like Blizzard before them, they looked at the MMO genre, took the things that worked for the evolving demographic and discarded the things that didn't. The first few months are indeed a trying time for any MMO, and Trion is clearly hurting for the lack of millions of dollars Blizzard had to smooth over bumps back in WoW early days, but they are doing a fine job of it.

    Now, do I still get all nostalgic about my DAoC or Shadowbane or Vanilla WoW days? Of course! Hell, I too sometimes wonder if the world would have seemed much bugger if I didn't have a mount and a minimap that told me where to go. Or if the community was stronger if grouping up was still the way to level. Or if crafting was more meaningful if you had to devote all your time to it and dungeon drops were rare. I can think of great examples from the past of all those things combining to form a deep and meaningful experience.

    But I can also remember far far more experiences where the above features caused me nothing but annoyance and disappointment. And now that I have more money than time, I simply don't want to deal with that. I don't want to put up with mountains of grief for a morsel of greatness. Such is the process of growing old, I guess.

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by SneakyRussian View Post
    Except that's not how life works. People who no longer have time for a hobby have something else instead: money. And money buys things. It may not even be intentional, but the demographic with the most money will go on to influence the core of every hobby they pick up, simply because there is money to be made in catering to them. This is the reason why MMO's are becoming simpler and more streamlined. This is also the reason why Diablo 3 is going to have real-money auctions, respecs, and all the other convenience features.

    When I first picked up WoW many years ago, I was amazed at the ease with which you could just... play it. You didn't need to wait for your mana bars to creep back up, you had drinks for that. You didn't need a group to level, you could just go and kill stuff. You didn't need to get on a wait list to run a dungeon, you could just get a group and run it. Haven't played in a while? Here's some rest XP to get you going again. It's like Blizzard took away all the boring in-between and concentrated on the core goodness.

    And you know what attracted me to Rift? Aside from the cool soul mechanics and rifts, what really sold me is the perception that Trion didn't like wasting my time even more than Blizzard. Just like Blizzard before them, they looked at the MMO genre, took the things that worked for the evolving demographic and discarded the things that didn't. The first few months are indeed a trying time for any MMO, and Trion is clearly hurting for the lack of millions of dollars Blizzard had to smooth over bumps back in WoW early days, but they are doing a fine job of it.

    Now, do I still get all nostalgic about my DAoC or Shadowbane or Vanilla WoW days? Of course! Hell, I too sometimes wonder if the world would have seemed much bugger if I didn't have a mount and a minimap that told me where to go. Or if the community was stronger if grouping up was still the way to level. Or if crafting was more meaningful if you had to devote all your time to it and dungeon drops were rare. I can think of great examples from the past of all those things combining to form a deep and meaningful experience.

    But I can also remember far far more experiences where the above features caused me nothing but annoyance and disappointment. And now that I have more money than time, I simply don't want to deal with that. I don't want to put up with mountains of grief for a morsel of greatness. Such is the process of growing old, I guess.
    It's not how life works. It's how some of the people would like to see it. I got older, I still have time for my hobby and I have a lot more money then 15-20 years ago. Yet I cannot spend it anywhere, because all the companies care for is cattering to the mediocre. It's just like the zerg. You don't know how to play, you don't have skill, and you don't know anything, but as long as you have 20 other idiots with you, you can win because you mash 1 and 2 together and that makes you great. I'm sick and tired of that sort of games.

    Imagine real life situation, 3 full plate knights with swords and axes and 20 peasants with woodden clubs standing against each other. Knights would win of course. But in the world of MMO, peasants complain that they can't beat knights because they have swords and axes and devs take away their weapons and armor and now peasants are happy because by doing nothing except complaining they won.
    Last edited by Overdrive; 08-04-2011 at 03:30 PM.

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrath View Post
    When you start stripping away all the timesinks, redundancies and minor annoyances, all you're left with is a box with a boss encounter in it, and that's not what MMOs originally were.
    So you're arguing AGAINST progress.

    I'm so glad no one listens to people like you.
    -Rilgon @ Deepwood (US)

  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlyng View Post
    Those talking about economics have hit the nail on the head. Modern corporate business plans revolve around attracting large numbers of consumers, and games are no exception.

    You probably won't see an old-style MMO unless some development company wants to try to make money by appealing to the population that wants that type of play. Now, there may be enough people to make that hypothetical game be more than a niche offering, but the numbers of players who played them compared to the number who play the modern games suggest otherwise.
    What I do think is that some developers are more inclined to "take the gamble " though . We can see that with the upcoming release of GW 2 and also with TSW . Both games are at least attempting to create a new kind of MMO .

    We must remember that when the first MMO was developed every "analyst"was saying the studios making that were daft and that it would never work ....

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ithadriel View Post
    What I do think is that some developers are more inclined to "take the gamble " though . We can see that with the upcoming release of GW 2 and also with TSW . Both games are at least attempting to create a new kind of MMO .

    We must remember that when the first MMO was developed every "analyst"was saying the studios making that were daft and that it would never work ....
    Maybe. I'm eagerly awaiting GW2, and it seems to be very different, but reportedly without the kinds of things some posters in this thread are waxing nostalgic about. I've seen enough people who seem fed up with the WoW model on these boards to think that it ... just ... might ... work.
    And thus I clothe my naked villainy
    With old odd ends, stol'n forth of holy writ;
    And seem a saint, when most I play the devil.-- William Shakespeare

  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ithadriel View Post
    What I do think is that some developers are more inclined to "take the gamble " though . We can see that with the upcoming release of GW 2 and also with TSW . Both games are at least attempting to create a new kind of MMO .

    We must remember that when the first MMO was developed every "analyst"was saying the studios making that were daft and that it would never work ....
    Wizardry Online is in the works and it will have Permadeath and full PVP so there are peoples with the gonads to make something not cookie cutter and done to death.

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/06...zardry-online/

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