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Thread: The problem with today's MMOs.

  1. #1
    Shadowlander Tenesi's Avatar
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    Default The problem with today's MMOs.

    *** This will be a long read. If you simply want to post a troll comment about "this is too long and I didnt read it" then by all means, go ahead. If you do read it, then I honestly thank you for your time.***

    I see tons of posts about how people are leaving Rift, and how bad Rift is, and ZOMG the development/gameplay/PvP/character balance issues and how they will end up going back to <insert your MMO that you have played for years here> because of them.

    Here is the deal...the reason you will go back to those old MMOs is because...well...they are old. They have been around the block and had an opportunity to get through the bugs and developmental issues and character balancing.

    I have played a list of MMOs as long as my arm. Some were good, (Star Wars Galaxies), some were great (Everquest), and some sucked (Aion). But...those are MY opinions. Im one person and each of those games gave ME something that I liked, or sought, or whatever. What I like in a game, you may not. Its impossible to please everyone. But, every single company tries to and it usually ends up bad due to the constant changes. Those constant changes cause code to be written, and then tested, and then most likely than anyone would like to admit...screwed up. So, it happens.

    The light at the end of the tunnel is when the game gets solid. When there arent many changes other than adding new zones, and content, and the balance issues get resolved. BUT...this takes time. It aint going to happen tomorrow. Hell, it wont happen 6 months from now. But it will happen eventually.

    Lets take an example of a game that I loved, (and arguably was the best MMO ever), and that is Everquest. Everquest was an incredible game for its time and is still causing developmental brainstorms to this day. But holy crap it was horrible when it first came out. When you died, you had to run back to get your corpse, stand there while you looted all of your belongings off your corpse (which means you had NO gear on when you got back to your corpse, so try to imagine fighting off the things that killed you in the first place with no gear), and if you didnt do it in a certain timeframe (30 mins plus 5 mins for each level) your corpse "popped". Along with all of your belongings and money that you happen to have on your corpse. People cried foul and Verant listened. So, they changed it so that you could give your friend permission to loot the items and bring them to you. Aaaaannnd then items were constantly being stolen. So, Verant changed it again to let people /drag their corpse. You could also give permission to your "friends" or the "friendly person that says they will help me get my corpse". They couldnt loot it, but could physically drag your corpse to you so that YOU could loot it. Until people thought it was funny to drag the corpse to the middle of a lava field and leave it. Verant finally made it so that you respawned with all your gear and there were no more "corpse runs".

    Ask anyone with any experience about a 4 hour corpse run after a failed Naggy raid and you will be in for quite a ride.

    But, these changes took a long time to develop. And the "corpse retrieval development" was just one of the many changes that took place over years of them. In the end, Everquest was a great solid game with a huge playerbase.

    Rift is new. For the love of everything holy, give it a chance to get old. Trion will go through many changes as well, trying to make it a game that everyone loves. But, it cant do it alone. It needs a playerbase and people that are willing to stick with them till they can get it there.

    Our society has became so spoiled in wanting everything, right now, perfectly done, and in a pretty wrapped package. And our attention span is 2 minutes. If its not perfect, then we look elsewhere. As a paying customer part of this is expected. But, you dont go and change your mortgage to every new bank that pops up, or your car insurance to a new company every time you see a commercial. There is something said for a little loyalty.

    While I can understand people wanting to move along if they dont get what they want, its got to be a little more reasonable.

    If you got the game to rush to max level only to become bored because of no content...well...you got what you paid for. Congratulations on reaching 50. You probably didnt even pay attention to the story content, the majority of the quests, or spent any time really "playing" the game. It turned into a social achievement for you and now you are looking for whats next. But, there is nothing wrong with this. It is the way of our society. "Check out what I got and how friggin cool it makes me in my eyes."

    There is a quote I used to say, "There are way too many people that spend money they dont have, on things they dont need, to impress people they dont even like." Odds are, those that strive to get to 50 in 3 days are among those type of people. But, its your money and if thats what floats your boat, then game on.

    In my opinion, the leveling of characters needs to be a HUGE focus of the game. I would make it so that it took f..o..r..e..v..e..r to get a level. Reaching the max level would be a huge, and I mean HUGE, accomplishment. And dying would have a large setback to that goal. It would force you to be a better player and not get yourself into situations where you are going to die. Using Everquest as another example...There was nothing like dinging a new level, dying shortly afterward, un-dinging your level, and then spending 3 hours to get it back.

    Its too easy to not think about playing, and not worry about dying. Hell, I have died just so I could respawn back at the city, pay for the res, and go turn in a quest. Its become a convenience just to die.

    But...I digress. Like I said earlier, what I think has no bearing on you and your gameplay. Its simply my opinion.

    So, in my opinion...let the game get old. Dont be so quick to hover your mouse over the "cancel my account" button. And enjoy "playing a game" that takes you away from paying bills, or mowing the yard, and so on and so forth.

    Have fun and dont take it so serious.

    See you in the fantasy.
    Tenesi Voll
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    <Insert Witty Quote Here>

  2. #2
    Shadowlander
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    This post is WIN. You get one Internet!

  3. #3
    Soulwalker
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    I agree with you. My opinion of the situation, having played MUDs, and then pretty much every single MMO since they started coming out with them, is that a lot of people are growing up and doing the same things with different skins is becoming easier to them and hence, boring.

    And the reason this continues to go on is that MMOs are too big. They cost too much money. They are more focused on money. The only people that have the power to try new things are the ones that can't because of the financial risks of doing so. There are so many possibilities and so many things that could be brought forth and implemented in MMOs that would be groundbreaking and awesome, but none of the big companies that matter like Blizzard and Trion can do it, because they have to fear the financial failure.

    Some of the coolest gameplay mechanics I've ever seen in any game have been in text based games, because those games don't have to fear loss of money if their ideas don't take off. The whole thing is really simple. Everyone just likes to play the blame game and blame this or that.

    In the end, Rift is an excellent mmo. But it is going to be boring to most people in the long run because we've all done this same thing a million times now. You can only reroll so many times doing the same things. So while Rift is certainly excellent at what it is, it is still what it is, and thats what people consider a 'mainstream MMO', which takes little to no risks in its design, and once finished like a console game, is largely discarded - except instead of being simply discarded its whined about ad infinium.

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    Ascendant Laughingstock's Avatar
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    People could also unsub until the game is fixed up and aged a bit, like people do with other new mmos.

    Playing a game brand new keeps you at pace with the current content, which means you'll burnout and finish it almost as soon as it's released. By waiting people get to let the developer fix all the issues like lag, server problems, low/broken/boring content.

    Unsubbing, going back to another game and waiting six months ensures when people return everything should be in tip-top shape.
    Last edited by Laughingstock; 06-28-2011 at 11:23 PM.

  5. #5
    General of Telara phyraxian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laughingstock View Post
    People could also unsub until the game is fixed up and aged a bit, like people do with other new mmos.

    Playing a game brand new keeps you at pace with the current content, which means you'll burnout and finish it almost as soon as it's released. By waiting people get to let the developer fix all the issues like lag, server problems, low/broken/boring content.

    Unsubbing, going back to another game and waiting six months ensures when people return everything should be in tip-top shape.
    Or you'll be so far behind that getting to current endgame isn't realistic.

  6. #6
    Shield of Telara Adebar's Avatar
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    *slow clap* *builds into fast clap* *fifty other claps from random locations begin*

    HE'S DONE IT! THE OP HAS DONE IT! HE MAKES SENSE! HE'S TELLING THE TRUTH!

    Right-o, I agree. The reason WoW is so great is it's been around for YEARS. It started when there weren't as many MMOs, so it could get a large playerbase at the start. It was just as bad as rift in 'nilla. Had bugs, unbalance, even more grind, and less polish. The only reason it grew to be as it is is because it was one of the few moderate MMOs of it's time and was very addictive.

    If rift is given time, it could crush WoW, who knows?

    The point about rushing to level 50 just to rush to level 50 is great. I started playing a few days after launch and got my first character to 50 a few weeks ago (3-4). I read all the quests, did crafting/gathering, got artifacts, did dungeons, and kept making alts to try out different souls. I don't feel special for reaching level 50. Hell, I haven't gotten any new gear except for stuff I bought/crafted since I hit level 50, and most of that was on the first day. I just don't see any reason to do dungeons when making alts is more fun. Hitting level 50 shouldn't be a mad rush, it should take time.

    I'd approve of it taking forever to hit the level cap. The journey beats the destination.
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  7. #7
    Shadowlander
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    Awesome thread!

    You are so right, and I have said the same to many players as well. MMO's takes time, and if anyone thinks a new MMO will be "done" when launched, they are wrong.

    In contrary to what another wrote in this thread, Rift actually came close to be "done" in some aspects. I was also a huge fan of Everquest, and still miss the days where getting a level as a achievement by itself. Since then I've played so many MMO's that I stopped counting. I've seen up's and down's in every MMO.

    Rift got it right. It's got one of the best developerteams I've ever seen in an MMO, and that says a lot for the game. It's been out for 4 months, and already been through 3 huge patchupdates, bringing new content every time.

    Thanks to the OP for bringing this up. Looking forward to play Rift for years to come

  8. #8
    Shield of Telara Adebar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkain View Post
    In contrary to what another wrote in this thread, Rift actually came close to be "done" in some aspects.
    Yeah, ****ty wording on my part

    I meant to say that WoW was unbalanced and kinda buggy too at launch. Not that they were just as bad. Because Rift is abysmally more polished than WoW was, and had a much better launch.
    127% of internet statistics are made up on the spot.

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  9. #9
    Shadowlander
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    I agree with your overall idea, if not necessarily little pieces of it, and what I don't agree with is just a difference between the mentality you saw out of those older Everquest players and the slightly younger generation of MMOers. I'll admit, I never played Everquest. I knew little about MMOs until I got a little into WoW, mainly as a huge Blizzard fan from years of tournament Starcraft play in local games. I was a strategy gamer through and through all through (through through through > . <) Everquest's real hayday, and didn't put any real thought into MMOs. What really got me into MMOs was Guild Wars. Guild Wars was that casual gaming experience; you hit max level in like a couple days, it didn't even really have end-game content until they brought in hard-modes, it was pretty much just a big social experience. You played with ability builds, hung out with your guild, just chilled out.

    I play Rift in a similar fashion. I enjoy getting to the maximum levels fairly quickly, but not because I'm like... needing the bragging rights of 'oh I have a max level character in blah blah.' I enjoyed the content throughout, I paused to do some good crafting or PvP or some random zone-specific things, but in the end it was a push to hit that Maximum level. The reason for that started just because of a need to experience everything. I like to get a hand in everything going on, I wanted to see everything that game had to offer and drink it in. Around the mid twenties, though, I was invited to my guild, the Radiant Dreamers, and in a way it all became about them. Like in the Guild Wars days, I met great people who I enjoyed playing with, but many of them were rather higher level than me. I pushed even harder, getting to fifty in a time that left much of my guild astonished, but I loved every second of it, and now I get to play with them all the time.

    I agree with your statements from your point of view, and from the points of view of others of the more Everquest mindset where everything is an achievement in and of itself, but I want to just make a shout-out for the other end of that. What I pay for every month is that fun, social experience of NOT having to be frustrated and exhausted putting so much effort into things like just gaining a level, of NOT worrying constantly that MAYBE this fight will kill me. I like enjoying the times when you accidentally pull way too many monsters and seeing if maybe, just maybe, you can kill them all before you go down without having to sweat in fear of dying.

    I love Rift, I fell in love with it not long after I started playing more seriously. My guild has helped that, and the entertaining, varied content where I'm never stuck just doing one thing has left me having a fantastic time. And thank you guys for making a well-worded post explaining a lot of the things I've been thinking about the near infancy stages of Rift. Sure, there's balance issues, bugs, odd little things that don't make sense. If you are crying that you don't like X change so you're going to cancel your subscription to go to Y game, then leave. Most of us that just enjoy the game world don't want you around anyway, it makes our lives a little quieter and a little nicer. I don't play to constantly hear people complain and troll on one another, act like ***** in 50 chat, or just generally be unpleasant to everyone. I enjoy the social experience created by this gameworld, I enjoy meeting and repeatedly playing with a community of players who I have grown to know and love, and all in all I enjoy just being here with everyone who likes to chill out a bit, and play a good, social game with everyone around them.

    So, on a side note here, those of you who do this: Please stop caps-locking insults in WFs when things don't go how you want, please stop *****ing to one another about every dumb little thing in 50 chat. I know all the 'well just /ignore' and 'well just don't read the chat' standard comments on this, but honestly, it's a game, a game meant to be played with each other, I shouldn't have to do that all the time. My /ignore is getting ridiculous.

    Anywho, sorry if I'm kind of going all over. I just wanted to say there's two sides to this same coin, and I hope to see more people helping others realize that maybe, just maybe, these tiny little mistakes or glitches or whatever aren't a reason to flame and explode and quit the game over. It's just part of joining an MMO that honestly just hasn't been with us that long.

    -Dareen
    Harbinger Dareen, Bounty Hunter
    Lieutenant General of Radiant Dreamers
    Frood who knows where her towel is

  10. #10
    Plane Touched
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    So, what exactly is the problem with today's MMOs? That's the thread title, and the wall of unnecessary history lessons didn't touch that topic.

  11. #11
    RIFT Guide Writer Milen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by htoncic View Post
    So, what exactly is the problem with today's MMOs? That's the thread title, and the wall of unnecessary history lessons didn't touch that topic.
    I think he means that the problem with today's MMOs is that the majority of the playerbase is spoiled and immature (I would also add stupid).

    This is: 1. true 2. inevitable

    Check my signature.
    Last edited by Milen; 06-29-2011 at 01:07 AM.
    retired

  12. #12
    Telaran
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    The OP is saying that leveling should be the content and not raiding. He doesn't want people who play the game 1 hour a day, 3 days a week to be max level in 4 months. He's oldschool and his mindset doesn't match up to the current demands of the market.

    Take off the rosey glasses. What was fun back then isn't fun now. Raiding in modern MMORPGs is more fun than leveling in Everquest or Ultima Online ever was.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ5DjJFCEXI

  13. #13
    Shield of Telara Adebar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ANTDrakko View Post
    The OP is saying that leveling should be the content and not raiding. He doesn't want people who play the game 1 hour a day, 3 days a week to be max level in 4 months. He's oldschool and his mindset doesn't match up to the current demands of the market.

    Take off the rosey glasses. What was fun back then isn't fun now. Raiding in modern MMORPGs is more fun than leveling in Everquest or Ultima Online ever was.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ5DjJFCEXI
    According to you.

    I'd rather have an epic journey and story that you spend time on then doing the same dungeon/raid 30 times. That's why I left WoW in a heart-beat. I had done the same content so often before, only for Blizz to recycle it..... It just pissed me off beyond belief.

    Still, that's my opinion. You may enjoy kicking back with your headset a few hours a day and doing dungeons, and I enjoy other aspects.

    Doesn't mean it's anymore fun as definition, just as opinion.

    On another note: What we do need to get is a middle-ground between Atelus and the OP, so we can have both. Have social aspects littering the game as well as a long road to the top. Maybe have resetting for characters, starting back at level one, and mentoring so high level players can play with their friends. That way you wouldn't need to rush to play with your friends.

    And Guild Wars did the social thing right. When I was playing it I heard it referred to as a "Social chat-room with an RPG mini-game."

    I'm excited about Guild Wars 2 partly because of that. Along with the story-mode thing and *squee* ENGINEERS WITH FLAMETHROWERS.
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  14. #14
    Ascendant Gray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenesi View Post
    Rift is new. For the love of everything holy, give it a chance to get old. Trion will go through many changes as well, trying to make it a game that everyone loves. But, it cant do it alone. It needs a playerbase and people that are willing to stick with them till they can get it there.
    funny, because with every patch rift gets more and more like a certain 6 year old game. how fast can a game get old?

    the problem is not the game, but the attitude of the developers to cater to the lowest denominator for money's sake. "trying to make it a game that everyone loves" never worked, never will.

    sometimes a game changes right from the start, sometimes over the course of the game. not everybody likes change, even if it's for the better. but if a game changes the direction too fast (does not matter if it's new or not, see swg), you can be sure that more than the usual amount isn't satisfied.

    tbh, we all pay to be entertained. "It needs a playerbase and people that are willing to stick with them till they can get it there" sounds fine and dandy, but would you pay for a car without tires? "just wait, we'll get there". you will finally have fun when you wait long enough!
    you can experiment how much you want and lurch around how you see fit - just don't expect to be paid for it.

    I agree tho, the whinig sometimes just gets annoying, especially in it's most unconstructive form. if you don't like it, fine, there is the door. but to dismiss every complaint because it's a complaint is an even bigger mistake.

    oh, and btw: guild wars is not an mmo. ;)
    Last edited by Gray; 06-29-2011 at 01:21 AM.

  15. #15
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by htoncic View Post
    So, what exactly is the problem with today's MMOs? That's the thread title, and the wall of unnecessary history lessons didn't touch that topic.

    The People is the problem.

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