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Thread: What doomed MMOs (and now we know for Rift)

  1. #1
    Plane Walker Sunfire's Avatar
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    Default What doomed MMOs (and now we know for Rift)

    Everquest I : The graphics eventually were just too dated and the game just got too old.

    DoAC: Not enough non-RvR, too much repetitive, recycled content ... at one point >20% of mobs in the game used the "spraggon" model

    Horizons: No people don't in fact want to build and craft EVERYTHING. Also, when 99% of your BETA testers tell you that you are no where close to release-ready and you ignore them ... well it's a bad idea.

    Everquest II: It had less appeal to Everquest players than WoW-60 did - smaller raid cap, less gear diversity, less competitive PvE

    Vanguard: Great games in concept and design can be murdered by incomplete execution, poor marketing, and being the bastard stepchild of both SoE and Microsoft. Sorry Sigil you guys got screwed

    DDO : the initial dogma of ONE lead developer that people wouldn't want to get XP from KILLING MOBS - just accomplishing tasks. This killed any chance this game had of being broadly adopted.

    LoTR: Too much story (even a great story, told very well) without enough game-play = a niche game that many people tried but few stayed with.

    FFXIV : NA MMO players don't use gamepads and don't want multiple layers of drop down menus.... and it takes AN HOUR to catch ONE FISH .... real fishing is actually much easier!

    ------------------------------------------------

    And now for our current situation:

    WoW : Oversimplification of the game to appease short-term casual players + editing of content for all players to appease asian governments with larger markets is rapidly driving every serious MMO player out of the game. Its the serious players that tend to stay with games for years, the casuals tend to sub a couple months and move on. WoW won't "die" for quite some time but the NA/EU servers are dropping fast and the rate of this loss will hasten in the coming years until WoW is a 90% Asian MMO by 2013 (It's already over 60% Asian so this shouldn't be a huge shocker).

    Rift: So much promise and potential ... I Beta tested this game since last year and really love it so its imminent death for the stupidest of reasons is killing me ... but here it is.

    BAD SERVER HARDWARE DESIGN KILLED RIFT.


    1800 players per server maximum per server for a game with this level of content and two no-group factions is suicide. A majority of players the majority of the time CANNOT 1) Find Expert Groups in an expedient fashion, 2) Successfully complete zone-wide rift events, 3) Find raid guilds on their server which raid during their play times, 4) even complete low level small group quests.

    Why is there no X-server LFG tool - THEY CANT MAKE ONE. Not because they care that many of us think it will kill community. They designed the Warfronts to use separate instance servers but clearly the Dungeons are hosted locally on each server.

    and now the sad moral of the sad story....

    TRION TRION TRION - THIS IS SO SAD - SPEND WHATEVER MONEY YOU HAVE, BORROW WHATEVER YOU CAN, BUT UPGRADE YOUR HARDWARE WHILE THERE IS STILL A CHANCE TO SAVE THIS GAME. PLEASE. YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO SUPPORT 5000 - FIVE THOUSAND - PLAYERS PER SERVER CONCURRENT MINIMUM TO SUPPORT THE CURRENT CONTENT. ADDDING MORE CONTENT WITH THIS FEW PLAYERS ONLY MAKES THINGS WORSE.

  2. #2
    Ascendant Fireforge's Avatar
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    Your presumption is that this game is dead.

  3. #3
    Ascendant
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfire View Post
    Everquest I : The graphics eventually were just too dated and the game just got too old.

    DoAC: Not enough non-RvR, too much repetitive, recycled content ... at one point >20% of mobs in the game used the "spraggon" model

    Horizons: No people don't in fact want to build and craft EVERYTHING. Also, when 99% of your BETA testers tell you that you are no where close to release-ready and you ignore them ... well it's a bad idea.

    Everquest II: It had less appeal to Everquest players than WoW-60 did - smaller raid cap, less gear diversity, less competitive PvE

    Vanguard: Great games in concept and design can be murdered by incomplete execution, poor marketing, and being the bastard stepchild of both SoE and Microsoft. Sorry Sigil you guys got screwed

    DDO : the initial dogma of ONE lead developer that people wouldn't want to get XP from KILLING MOBS - just accomplishing tasks. This killed any chance this game had of being broadly adopted.

    LoTR: Too much story (even a great story, told very well) without enough game-play = a niche game that many people tried but few stayed with.

    FFXIV : NA MMO players don't use gamepads and don't want multiple layers of drop down menus.... and it takes AN HOUR to catch ONE FISH .... real fishing is actually much easier!

    ------------------------------------------------

    And now for our current situation:

    WoW : Oversimplification of the game to appease short-term casual players + editing of content for all players to appease asian governments with larger markets is rapidly driving every serious MMO player out of the game. Its the serious players that tend to stay with games for years, the casuals tend to sub a couple months and move on. WoW won't "die" for quite some time but the NA/EU servers are dropping fast and the rate of this loss will hasten in the coming years until WoW is a 90% Asian MMO by 2013 (It's already over 60% Asian so this shouldn't be a huge shocker).

    Rift: So much promise and potential ... I Beta tested this game since last year and really love it so its imminent death for the stupidest of reasons is killing me ... but here it is.

    BAD SERVER HARDWARE DESIGN KILLED RIFT.


    1800 players per server maximum per server for a game with this level of content and two no-group factions is suicide. A majority of players the majority of the time CANNOT 1) Find Expert Groups in an expedient fashion, 2) Successfully complete zone-wide rift events, 3) Find raid guilds on their server which raid during their play times, 4) even complete low level small group quests.

    Why is there no X-server LFG tool - THEY CANT MAKE ONE. Not because they care that many of us think it will kill community. They designed the Warfronts to use separate instance servers but clearly the Dungeons are hosted locally on each server.

    and now the sad moral of the sad story....

    TRION TRION TRION - THIS IS SO SAD - SPEND WHATEVER MONEY YOU HAVE, BORROW WHATEVER YOU CAN, BUT UPGRADE YOUR HARDWARE WHILE THERE IS STILL A CHANCE TO SAVE THIS GAME. PLEASE. YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO SUPPORT 5000 - FIVE THOUSAND - PLAYERS PER SERVER CONCURRENT MINIMUM TO SUPPORT THE CURRENT CONTENT. ADDDING MORE CONTENT WITH THIS FEW PLAYERS ONLY MAKES THINGS WORSE.
    ITT:

    Opinion stated as fact.

    Opinion stated as fact.

    Opinion stated as fact.

    Therefore, concluding opinion must also be fact.

    (Hint: try again.)

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    Plane Walker Sunfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fireforge View Post
    Your presumption is that this game is dead.
    It's not dead yet.

    I'm just telling you the writing on the tombstone if the situation isn't fixed soon. I think anyone who is a realist sees that blindly allowing server transfers is only going to make things worse, not better also.

    This game has awesome content that I love - but the fact is the greatest content in the world is useless if its inaccessible to the majority of your players (aka everyone not on Wolfsbane).

  5. #5
    Champion of Telara Shokenaw's Avatar
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    Rift isn't dead. But the small servers are sure making it hard.

    On my server there is a guild with 150 50s. What do you think that does to the rest of the server's pool when we can have only 900 of each faction online at any one time?

    Combine this with the mindless grind now that 1.2 screwed plaque aquirement. Unless you had a guild already raiding, 1.2 basically stalled entire guilds gearing to raid.

    GW2 looks so promising. Can't be released fast enough IMO.

    WTB entry level raids ala Kara style, Naxx in wrath style (ZG/URBS in Vanilla)
    Last edited by Shokenaw; 06-04-2011 at 04:15 PM.
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    Ascendant Fireforge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfire View Post
    It's not dead yet.

    I'm just telling you the writing on the tombstone if the situation isn't fixed soon. I think anyone who is a realist sees that blindly allowing server transfers is only going to make things worse, not better also.

    This game has awesome content that I love - but the fact is the greatest content in the world is useless if its inaccessible to the majority of your players (aka everyone not on Wolfsbane).
    The problem is that you aren't figuring growth or change into your equation.

  7. #7
    Plane Walker Sunfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Licentia View Post
    ITT:

    Opinion stated as fact.

    Opinion stated as fact.

    Opinion stated as fact.

    Therefore, concluding opinion must also be fact.

    (Hint: try again.)
    Server cap is 1800-2000 = FACT

    IPP. Stillmoor, and Shimmersand have <10 players in each zone on 90% of the servers 90% of the time = FACT.

    LFG Queues are > 1hr on most of the servers most of the time = FACT

    Warfronts use instance servers while dungeons are separate instances on the main server = FACT.

    ----------------------------------

    Sorry I missed where the opinions were?

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    Plane Walker Sunfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shokenaw View Post
    Rift isn't dead. But the small servers are sure making it hard.

    On my server there is a guild with 150 50s. What do you think that does to the rest of the server's pool when we can have only 900 of each faction online at any one time?
    That's actually a really interesting pattern ... our entire guild just merged into the largest, most raid-advanced guild on our server for the same reason. Now we have a >100 person guild that can raid and had finished all the existing bosses at least once .... but no one else even has enough people to get to Greenscale.

    That has to be a function of the populations .. and the lack of assignment of time zone tags to the individual servers.

  9. #9
    Champion of Telara Shokenaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfire View Post
    That's actually a really interesting pattern ... our entire guild just merged into the largest, most raid-advanced guild on our server for the same reason. Now we have a >100 person guild that can raid and had finished all the existing bosses at least once .... but no one else even has enough people to get to Greenscale.

    That has to be a function of the populations .. and the lack of assignment of time zone tags to the individual servers.
    Why do you need that many 50s? 30, maybe 40 TOPS if they are dedicated raiders.

    Big guilds are what is killing this game because of the limitation on the size of the servers. Of course, Trion will never address this issue, so its moot to even talk about it.

    Basically having one of those guilds on your server you are faced with the choice of 'join us or never raid' because too many sheeple don't know how to do things for themselves and would rather be carried by superior players and thye could be last on the dps meter/heals etc. Easier to do when you're a larger guild. Just like you can screw up more in a 20 man than you can a 10 man
    Last edited by Shokenaw; 06-04-2011 at 04:22 PM.
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  10. #10
    Ascendant Kevyne's Avatar
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    What doomed MMOs is those wanting to relive 1998 in 2010, and not realizing the world and it's new generation of kids have changed.

    Saddest part of MMOs is that WoW and RIFT both resemble more FPS games than MMORPGs. They don't even include biographies for your toons, they just cut out all the RP, it's DPS, DPS and more DPS and explains why the highest pop servers in WoW are all PvP.

    By bringing in FPS players and their "bang, bang" mentalities, the genre has become a FPS. No more puzzles; no more adventures in the sticks; heck, even Laura Croft games had you climbing and jumping over things (notice WoW and RIFT doesn't even include climbing animations???). Nope, deathmatch style plays.

    Bottom line is: if you want to play a FPS you buy a FPS game. If you want to play a MMORPG...sadly, you can't buy a major title one anymore -- and yet more reasons why this genre is stagnating (population capped in 2008). -_-

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    Plane Walker Sunfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shokenaw View Post
    Why do you need that many 50s? 30, maybe 40 TOPS if they are dedicated raiders.

    Big guilds are what is killing this game because of the limitation on the size of the servers. Of course, Trion will never address this issue, so its moot to even talk about it.
    3 reasons:

    1) They didnt time zone tag the servers - so every guild is a mix of EST / CST / PST players - you need a lot of people to make sure you actually have 20-25 on when you want to raid.

    2) The corrupted soul system. It still takes FOREVER to get enough Corrupted Souls to consistently run 10-man Rift Raids. You need all-guild groups running T2s all the time.

    3) All the smaller guilds like mine was before the merge couldn't advance after the 1.1-1.2 changes. It was too hard to get Souls to open 5 and 10-man Raid Rifts, took too long to get enough T2 plaque gear to deck out a full raid core, etc. So the people that wanted to raid from all the small guilds and WERE geared enough all gravitated to the guilds that had already gotten the core people geared before 1.1,1.2 so they'd actually be able to do the raid content - even if its just as an alternate etc.
    Last edited by Sunfire; 06-04-2011 at 04:27 PM.

  12. #12
    Telaran
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    We have one, i repeat ONE, raiding guild on our server which is struggling to get 17 members online for raid.
    Though I do not do experts myself anymore, but people say it takes hours to get a group going.
    Auction House is screwed up. Most runes go for way beyond 6 or 7 plat, crafters for rare stuff are non existant.
    Minor invasions fail half the time because noone bothers to do anything. A major invasion has been defeated last time over 3 weeks ago (mainly due to the opposite factions effort).

    Server population needs to be at least quadrupled to make this viable.

  13. #13
    Ascendant Fireforge's Avatar
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    I'm kind of with Kevyne (as long as he doesn't link that glare emote from EQ2 again) about moving on. I loved EQ1 tremendously but I have zero desire to play that game again. I was there already. I want fresh and exciting. There is enough here to keep me busy for the duration of my 6 month sub. I am sure I will resub ($60 is mega-cheap) to Rift when that is up. Open world PVE is a step in the right direction.

  14. #14
    Plane Touched
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    YOU ARE WRONG

    A game isn't dying/dead until I say it is.

    ---------

    Why couldn't you just say that allowing more players per server would help the game?

  15. #15
    Ascendant Fireforge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestrya View Post
    Server population needs to be at least quadrupled to make this viable.
    Hang on little buddy, 1.3 is coming!

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