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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rydeson View Post
    So you want complete anarchy? NO THANKS..
    That is absolutely not what I said.

    "It is illegal to murder people." This is a legitimate law. This law serves a specific purpose of protecting the citizenry. It criminalizes doing harm to other people.

    "It is illegal to make clicking noises with your tongue." This is not a legitimate law. This law does not protect the citizenry from any sort of harm. It criminalizes an arbitrary action.

    I trust you are intelligent enough to see the difference here.

    As members of a free society -- or rather, a society that aspires to be free -- it is our civic duty to resist and eliminate illegitimate laws. When you are arrested for something, it must be because it is wrong, not because it is illegal. In time, the law should be refined such that illegal and wrong are one and the same -- not because "wrong" has been expanded to include everything that is illegal, but because "illegal" has been shrunk to include only that which is truly wrong.

    When the Unites States was formed, that act was illegal. Breaking off from the British Empire and forming an independent colony was against the law -- so much so that the military was sent to deal with it. But as members of a society that aspired to be free, they took up their civic duty and cast off the illegitimate law.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isila View Post
    The problem with this line of thinking is that you're defining right and wrong, in the eyes of the law, in terms of what offends people.

    Maybe I feel that grocery stores are sacred, and wearing shoes in them is an affront to my sensibilities. Should people be arrested for that?

    The only proper system of criminal law is one that defines right and wrong purely in terms of doing harm to others. Civil law is where matters of taste and respect should be dealt with. But even in those cases, caution must be exercised not to over-legislate.

    Freedom is meaningless if you are only free to do what someone else defines as acceptable.
    Society, in order to function needs to have conventions. It won't function without them because humans are essentially primitive, no matter how much technology we have. It's about being territorial.

    Territory isn't just lines on maps. There's also idealogical territory and infringement on that territory can cause all sorts of problems. True freedom would end up being anarchy, because those who have attachments to that sort of thing will end up attacking those who don't have attachments.

    That means that someone has to draw a line somewhere. If people were mature enough to not need laws to govern their actions, I'd agree with you. I don't think we're that mature as a species.

    Because of this laws are made and those laws are often moronic. But they're made for a reason, even if you can't see it.

    Disrepect is disrepect and while I don't think it should be illegal, it should certainly be discouraged.

    There are other ways to protest.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isila View Post
    That is absolutely not what I said.

    "It is illegal to murder people." This is a legitimate law. This law serves a specific purpose of protecting the citizenry. It criminalizes doing harm to other people.

    "It is illegal to make clicking noises with your tongue." This is not a legitimate law. This law does not protect the citizenry from any sort of harm. It criminalizes an arbitrary action.

    I trust you are intelligent enough to see the difference here.

    As members of a free society -- or rather, a society that aspires to be free -- it is our civic duty to resist and eliminate illegitimate laws. When you are arrested for something, it must be because it is wrong, not because it is illegal. In time, the law should be refined such that illegal and wrong are one and the same -- not because "wrong" has been expanded to include everything that is illegal, but because "illegal" has been shrunk to include only that which is truly wrong.

    When the Unites States was formed, that act was illegal. Breaking off from the British Empire and forming an independent colony was against the law -- so much so that the military was sent to deal with it. But as members of a society that aspired to be free, they took up their civic duty and cast off the illegitimate law.
    ahh OK.. you want the world to live by YOUR laws.. I guess only YOU know what is a legitimate law or not.. Hitler thought that way too.. NO THANKS..

  4. #34
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    Default So prove your point.

    [QUOTE=Isila;2512988]I am claiming that the law is not legitimate.QUOTE]

    Great - pick and choose what laws you think are "legitimate" and break the ones that don't meet your criteria, and see how far that impresses the legal system.
    Just as an FYI, I was a LEO for several years, I ran into your types once in a while, and no judge was *ever* convinced of that type of argument - they paid their fine and court costs, and every now and then got to cool their heels in jail with real bad guys....always a learning experience for the stupid.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wulfax View Post
    Learn your history - the founding fathers of this country put their lives on the line, that's well documented. I think that's worth a memorial, but I'm from a different generation then most of ya'll.
    I don't know what generation you think I'm from, but I'm 49. Mine dad fought in World War 2 and he might agree with you. However, that doesn't change the fact that there's more hidden from us about history than presented. Taking the words of historical documents doesn't ever tell the whole story.

    Perhaps because I'm a writer and have to research things often and realize the layers of truth to this sort of thing, I have a different opinion than you.

    It doesn't have to mean I'm from a different generation.
    Last edited by nagennif; 05-29-2011 at 10:23 PM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightbane View Post
    People like you are what is wrong with today's society, you think you can go around and do whatever you want damn the consequences of your actions. Its obviously a deliberate attempt to disturb the peace, which is you know illegal? If you violate the rights of others the right to freedom of action is revoked, the rights of others come before the rights of the people deliberatly violating them.
    Define "disturb the peace".

    Remember, your definition has to be clear enough to be used as a basis for imprisoning people.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isila View Post
    We're not operating on the same level.

    I'm not claiming that what they were doing was not in violation of a law. Quoting the law they were violating makes no difference. I am claiming that the law is not legitimate. See my previous post about outlawing the color blue. It doesn't matter if that law is on the books, it is not a legitimate law and should not be obeyed by any free person. Blind deference to authority is not a mark of a free society, it is a mark of an oppressed society.
    Remember Wayne's World 2? Remember when Wayne and Garth had to go get permits from the Park's Office to through that huge concert that they did? Same concept here.

    I see in no way how the law is "not legitimate" when all it is, is a permit demonstration law. One cannot go to the White House lawn, sit on it in a singing circle and shouting "Obama is the devil". They're not going to be arrested for what they say or even how they say it, but in the way it's presented by not following the guidelines in which keep the peace. If that same group gets a permit and stand out on the sidewalk just outside the fence with picket signs saying that exact same thing, they won't get arrested at all. The paperwork is there and it's perfectly within keeping the peace.


    The whole reason behind needing permits for Protests and Public Presentations is to prevent riots. Throughout the history of not only our own country but others, there has been an issue with large gatherings of people that riot out and eventually start to destroy public and private property that ends in damage, injury, and inevitably death. Who really wants the Police to get a gathering of Breast Cancer Awareness people confused with riot? Well, they won't because (besides them all wearing pink), the police are already aware of the gathering, just as the county commissioner's office, the roads (so they can redirect traffic), the tourist groups have things rescheduled, and so on.


    Another crazy, just ludicrous example: What if the *** decided to openly hold a rally at the Washington monument and same with the Million Man March? Imagine the anarchy that would ensue, the deaths that would occur. All because each group gets their version of "Free Speech" and "First Amendment Rights", but apparently without regulations of what seems to clash with another person's Rights of the same type.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isila View Post
    That is absolutely not what I said.

    "It is illegal to murder people." This is a legitimate law. This law serves a specific purpose of protecting the citizenry. It criminalizes doing harm to other people.

    "It is illegal to make clicking noises with your tongue." This is not a legitimate law. This law does not protect the citizenry from any sort of harm. It criminalizes an arbitrary action.

    I trust you are intelligent enough to see the difference here.

    As members of a free society -- or rather, a society that aspires to be free -- it is our civic duty to resist and eliminate illegitimate laws. When you are arrested for something, it must be because it is wrong, not because it is illegal. In time, the law should be refined such that illegal and wrong are one and the same -- not because "wrong" has been expanded to include everything that is illegal, but because "illegal" has been shrunk to include only that which is truly wrong.

    When the Unites States was formed, that act was illegal. Breaking off from the British Empire and forming an independent colony was against the law -- so much so that the military was sent to deal with it. But as members of a society that aspired to be free, they took up their civic duty and cast off the illegitimate law.
    I 100% agree with you, it's all about morals and ethics. **** get's skewed so much and the lines get blurred, people being defensive over your OPINION need to remember that everyone has them, and are entitled to voice them. Especially on a public forum. What irks me is that people can't see passed their initial judgement.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by KetMalice View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Uyia...eature=related

    They were there protesting that a woman was arrested and lost her appeal for dancing at the memorial. They new it was a crime.
    Haha they also said someone on the ground was punched in the face-Which wasn't true. That guy was pulling his friend that was being arrested. He is lucky he wasn't tazed. And the guy that got body slammed, he wasn't obeying the officers commands, again, he should have been tazed.

    Police officers protect all of us. They NEVER know when that nice looking guy is going to pull a gun and shoot them in the face. Don't you want to go home and see your wife and kid? Are you going to take a chance of your wife being a widow and your son not having his father for his first football game?

    This is very personal to me and you guys are a bunch of idiots. You take for granted all of the men and women that have died, all of the widows, and kids growing up without a father or mother, because their father or mother sacrificed their life to keep you and your kids safe.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isila View Post
    A law has just been passed that anyone found in possession of the color blue is to be imprisoned. If you own anything that is colored, in part or in whole, with any shade or tint of blue, you are violating the law.

    Where does it stop?
    It's all about balance. No one is saying people can't protest. But allowing people to protest at say someone's funeral is offensive to me. I wouldn't want people protesting at a family member's funeral.

    It's disrespectful. If I'm burying a family member, I should be able to bury them in peace. So where do you draw the line.

    Saying that no line needs to be drawn is as or more dangerous than drawing the wrong line. Laws can be challenged if they're unconstitutional and overturned. It's a series of checks and balances.

    It's a delicate balance that doesn't always get it "right" from my point of view, but the alternative, I believe, would be worse.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isila View Post
    That is absolutely not what I said.

    "It is illegal to murder people." This is a legitimate law. This law serves a specific purpose of protecting the citizenry. It criminalizes doing harm to other people.

    "It is illegal to make clicking noises with your tongue." This is not a legitimate law. This law does not protect the citizenry from any sort of harm. It criminalizes an arbitrary action.

    I trust you are intelligent enough to see the difference here.

    As members of a free society -- or rather, a society that aspires to be free -- it is our civic duty to resist and eliminate illegitimate laws. When you are arrested for something, it must be because it is wrong, not because it is illegal. In time, the law should be refined such that illegal and wrong are one and the same -- not because "wrong" has been expanded to include everything that is illegal, but because "illegal" has been shrunk to include only that which is truly wrong.

    When the Unites States was formed, that act was illegal. Breaking off from the British Empire and forming an independent colony was against the law -- so much so that the military was sent to deal with it. But as members of a society that aspired to be free, they took up their civic duty and cast off the illegitimate law.
    Things like clicking your tongue ISN't against the law. There are laws that not only protect the citezens from harm , but also protect THEIR RIGHTS.

    That lady that was escorted and arrested for obstruction, because she was talking in the quiet car of the train and then started yelling at every body. SHE DOES NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO THAT.

    The people that were dancing in protest, they DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO MAKE ME FORFEIT MY RIGHT OF REFLECTING AT THE MEMORIAL.

    People aren't being arrested for X, they are, but the LAW THAT THEY ARE BEING ARRESTED FOR is obstruction or disturbing the peace usually.

    If you sat there and were clicking your tongue in court, you would be held in contempt and arrested. That is a very legitimate law.
    Last edited by Gill; 05-29-2011 at 11:56 PM. Reason: insulting another member

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by KetMalice View Post
    Haha they also said someone on the ground was punched in the face-Which wasn't true. That guy was pulling his friend that was being arrested. He is lucky he wasn't tazed. And the guy that got body slammed, he wasn't obeying the officers commands, again, he should have been tazed.

    Police officers protect all of us. They NEVER know when that nice looking guy is going to pull a gun and shoot them in the face. Don't you want to go home and see your wife and kid? Are you going to take a chance of your wife being a widow and your son not having his father for his first football game?

    This is very personal to me and you guys are a bunch of idiots. You take for granted all of the men and women that have died, all of the widows, and kids growing up without a father or mother, because their father or mother sacrificed their life to keep you and your kids safe.
    So there are no corrupt soldiers? No corrupt police officers? Everyone one of them is a true-blue American. A police officer never took a bribe? Never shook down someone? Never kept and sold drugs? No soldier has ever crossed the line. Tortured someone? Killed someone they didn't have to?

    Are you saying we should respect a uniform and not a person?

    Soldiers and police come in all shapes, sizes and colors. A friend of mine who works on the NYC police force has told me stories of corruption I couldn't believe. And cover up. He's one of the "good guys" for lack of a better word. He's also gotten in trouble for being one of the good guys.

    Armies are a necessarily evil, but let's not glorify individuals as being more than they are. Some people are just there for a pay check.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrobeast View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWeF6...ayer_embedded#

    Buncha attention deprived individuals huh?
    That's foreigners for ya.
    Briarcliff I make em scream.

    Quote Originally Posted by Selenity View Post
    I'm not sure if you are talking to him or me. But I do care. I even care about what would bring you to the place that you would put such pictures on your profile.

  14. #44
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    Default Guess what - this *isn't* a public forum!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrobeast View Post
    I 100% agree with you, it's all about morals and ethics. **** get's skewed so much and the lines get blurred, people being defensive over your OPINION need to remember that everyone has them, and are entitled to voice them. Especially on a public forum. What irks me is that people can't see passed their initial judgement.
    You can't possibly believe what you just posted, do you? You do realize that this is a *private* forum, not public?
    You have *zero* rights here, you are allowed to post as a privilege......

    If you honestly believed what you wrote, well there's no point having a conversation with someone like you.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by KetMalice View Post
    Things like clicking your tongue ISN't against the law. There are laws that not only protect the citezens from harm , but also protect THEIR RIGHTS.

    That lady that was escorted and arrested for obstruction, because she was talking in the quiet car of the train and then started yelling at every body. SHE DOES NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO THAT.

    The people that were dancing in protest, they DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO MAKE ME FORFEIT MY RIGHT OF REFLECTING AT THE MEMORIAL.

    People aren't being arrested for X, they are, but the LAW THAT THEY ARE BEING ARRESTED FOR is obstruction or disturbing the peace usually.

    If you sat there and were clicking your tongue in court, you would be held in contempt and arrested. That is a very legitimate law.
    Calling people names doesn't do your cause any justice at all. It garners no sympathy for your cause. If you can't defend your beliefs without resorting to name calling, you shouldn't be posting on the forums.

    I do believe this entire topic is against forum policy anyway, but name calling is definitely against the policy.

    Why don't you follow some of the rules you believe in? You did agree to those rules when you signed up.
    Last edited by Gill; 05-29-2011 at 11:58 PM. Reason: Reply to a post that was edited

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