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Thread: Regarding Female Armor

  1. #1
    Shadowlander
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    Default Regarding Female Armor

    Just finished reading a thread on the WoW forums (which I also participate in) and now here about the same issues, again.

    People complain about how pointless female armor seems to be, and usually the ones who are *against* the generally scant and sexy types use the same arguments. I just want to point out some facts about those, in general. But first, remember that first and foremost a game's avatar is something for people to enjoy looking at for hours on end, and at the end of the day what the majority likes will be kept, due simply to marketing guidelines.

    Knowing that a large portion of female characters are played by men, it's only natural that companies cater to the dominant fan base over a few that dislike said concepts. Also, sex sells.

    Now that we got over the disclaimer, allow me to systematically debunk each argument I read over and over every single time.

    Know that by no means am I saying I support the ultra-skimpy type, as I myself being a male find it rather distracting in some cases. (In cities I enjoy looking at them, but it grabs the eye too often in pvp. I do not play a female myself.)




    It's not realistic:

    This one is by far the most common. Here's the issue:
    In a "realistic" setting, no woman could even hope to run around in full plate. This is a chart with bench pressing standards for males and female: http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLi...Standards.html

    In terms of strength alone, pound for pound, a woman is less than half as capable as any man, even on elite athlete levels. Even men had trouble wearing those back in the middle ages. A knight needed several helpers to put it on, and would ride a horse to battle to avoid being flat out exhausted from just walking in it. A set of plate mail just 2mm thick weighed in excess of 100 lbs, not counting the sword/axe.

    If you insist on realism, women are limited to leather or at best a single piece of light chain mail, no heavy weapons, and about half the stamina for running in it. Even as rogues or assassins, women would use seduction rather than force to deceive a target before the kill, and seldom take part in open conflict.

    So please lay off the realism thing. It's a fantasy game. No man could hope to wave around a sword 2x their mass without tearing ligaments and tendons, yet nobody complains about that.




    It objectifies women:


    Yes and no. There is a double standard for looks and attractiveness in our society. A man who dresses in a way as to show off a "perfect" body is deemed gay, and there's a reason for that.

    As a species, our courtship rituals were usually as follows: Females try to make themselves attractive to males in the hopes of gaining the favor of the strongest and most able among them. The biological reasoning is that the male would provide for her through hunting, gathering, and afford protection from beasts and other humans, in exchange for a female who could produce good offspring. The traits a male usually seeks in a female are also based on biological benefits: A wide hip means wider hipbones, which facilitates birth and reduces risk of miscarriage. Large breasts mean abundant milk for a newborn. A large butt means she has adipose stores (women usually store fat on thighs and hip first, as opposed to males who get the beer belly), and could survive famine for longer. Likewise, muscle definition meant a highly active male, who was likely able in combat and hunting.

    As such, it was always, and will always be the general practice that women seek to entice men and offer themselves, and that men must be deemed worthy to actually claim the "prize" (back then it was through combat or hunting, now days its a personality / paycheck / charisma check).

    In that light, it's natural for women to constantly try to draw male attention to themselves through various means.

    Saying that dressing scantily objectifies women is a bit ******ed considering we were all naked to begin with, and women think nothing of putting on pounds of make up and shopping for expensive clothes to try and gain an edge on each other in social settings. It's the same concept. Nobody dresses up for themselves, they dress up (both men and women) for others to find them attractive.

    That being said, it boils down to taste. Usually people who are not happy with the way their body looks and how others react to or judge them, tend to shy away from revealing clothes. In a virtual and anonymous setting this may translate in one of 2 ways: 1) They avoid it due to how they feel about it from past experience and / or mindset and opinions they were raised with. Or 2) They try to act out like they would not dare in real life by wearing the most provocative attire available.

    In either case it's overcompensation for a previous experience. People who actually are ok with themselves and do not judge based on appearance usually do not care too much, and actually enjoy the art style that is usually elaborate and well made, if a bit over the top.

    Case in point: One should not judge someone over what they wear. The fact that I wear camo pants does not make me military any more than a girl wearing a miniskirt or a bikini makes her a skank.




    It's useless:


    Well, that depends really. Some warrior clans in Japan, for example, wore only forearm plates and shin guards. Why? Mobility outweighs mitigation on most instances. Plate armor looks awesome, but it's not very hard to drive a thick knife through a car hood is it? Wearing a big helmet is intimidating, but it narrows vision, fatigues, and your neck will snap just as well if I mace your skull from the side with a 10 pound steel ball covered in spikes. Shock waves render solid armor useless, which is the whole idea behind blunt weapons to begin with. Broken bones are just as deadly in battle as a deep cut, because once you cant move, you're as good as dead.

    Although we all know the g-strings are there for eye candy purposes, a rogue wearing such a garment will actually be a lot more agile than one in full leather. It's not useless to have, for example, armored arms and legs only, as those are usually put in front of the head and torso to defend against assault. Losing leg movement is also deadly in battle, since mobility dictates survival. In the army they'll tell you "your feet are your best friends", and it's true. Once you can't keep up you become a liability to the entire squad, and will likely condemn them all.

    Someone posted that they "dont want a hero who has to work around her butt hanging out", well it would be more accurate to say she doesn't have to work around cumbersome armor. Let me remind you that nudity is the body's natural state. Our muscles were never designed to cope with restrictive steel plates, so I don't see how being able to move more freely could hinder her. Unless of course it's a psychological issue of being self conscious about your modesty, in which case the armor is not at fault, moralistic social prudery is.




    To sum it up, it's just a matter of taste. I'm all for an appearance tab, since I firmly believe gear stats and looks should not be tied together. But please spare me the pragmatic preaching about facts that are both irrelevant and annoying. If you ever held a broad-axe in your hand, you know you have no right to evoke "realism" when mentioning women in combat, ever.

    I say we could find balance by having 2 or 3 different graphics for each armor piece, with varying levels of skin exposure both for males and females.

    All in all though, compared to Tera, most western mmo armor looks bland and tasteless, including the male versions, simply due to the level of detail and complexity. Give credit where credit is due, even if you don't like the style, you have to admit it they put a hell of a lot more creative effort into it.



    This was my first post here, nice to meet you all.

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  2. #2
    Ascendant Misun's Avatar
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    I'm a woman and I wish the armor was MORE revealing.

    It's a fantasy game. It's been a long standing tradition in most fantasy games to have sexy/revealing armor. That's something I have always liked.

    Make it sexy for male characters too!

    However, I think both sides of the fence could be placated if appearance slots were implemented.

    Right now for me, the armor is "bleh"..however it's still better than what I'm used to. At least my character doesn't have her spine bones sticking out and her pants aren't raggedly cut off at the knee

  3. #3
    Plane Walker darkeden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misun View Post
    I'm a woman and I wish the armor was MORE revealing.

    It's a fantasy game. It's been a long standing tradition in most fantasy games to have sexy/revealing armor. That's something I have always liked.

    Make it sexy for male characters too!

    However, I think both sides of the fence could be placated if appearance slots were implemented.

    Right now for me, the armor is "bleh"..however it's still better than what I'm used to. At least my character doesn't have her spine bones sticking out and her pants aren't raggedly cut off at the knee
    Totally agree, I think these debates will continue until some kind of appearance slots are added. And also agree I would not mind having sexier options for both men and women.
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  4. #4
    Shadowlander Sybbie's Avatar
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    Hi!
    As a female player i stumbled upon many people who had many diffrent views on this matter. I dont know how the majority of female players view this but i stand by your post and applaud it.
    I dont know how you can feel objectified unless you let yourself be that by your own doings . The reality thing? Oh so the fact that my plate armor shows skin is faaaar more weird that i shoot fireballs , can stand minutes and minutttteees underwater,my backpack can carry like 50 huge wepons and other stuff . Right?Wrong.
    So yes, the people who mention realism are to laugh at in my opinion also.
    The best example i can think of with the objectifing women is a post made by a fellow player(diffrent game but same point).She was making all the arguments to prove her point untill i took a look at her avatar. It was eher yes, showing cleavege and posing in quite a sexy pose. Need i say that her point of gaming gear objectifing wemen was quite laghed at after that?
    Im sorry for all the people who are offended by this but we play in a fantasy world that is Telara , and no matter what game you play , this sould be kept in mind.

  5. #5
    Rift Disciple Maluz's Avatar
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    Well for one,
    As Misun said, if in fact it is a female playing a female char ,women would want to feel sexy, as anyone who is married or have had a girlfriend knows this.

    Women are beautiful and like to be portraid as such.

    Now if a male in a GAME is getting excited by looking at a female avatar they have there own problems.

    Women avatars should look sexy in a fantasy setting. This is how its always been.

    Also it is a FANTASY game, maybe a woman who is playing a fantasy game that does not fell sexy in real life, gets to feel sexy threw her avatar.

    Anyway,

    like i said earlier, if somone is getting off looking a femal avatar, they have a problem.

  6. #6
    Telaran Shiverra's Avatar
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    Great post, and welcome to the forums!

    The whole post made me smile. Mostly I smiled while I imagined the trolls struggling between trying to skim/read most of it so they could mock your points, and them trying to actually understand the concepts and realizing that you are so right.

    Hope to read more from you.

    Can I touch your brain?


    Sorry. Couldn't help myself.

  7. #7
    Plane Touched Panduss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misun View Post
    I'm a woman and I wish the armor was MORE revealing.

    It's a fantasy game. It's been a long standing tradition in most fantasy games to have sexy/revealing armor. That's something I have always liked.

    Make it sexy for male characters too!
    The main problem I have with a lot of female armour in Rift is not that it's too much / little revealing but that it's UGLY.

    They really need a fashion designer. Or a woman on their all-male design team to say "no way in hell I'd wear this... sack". =P
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  8. #8
    Shadowlander
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    I'm also a female player, and I primarily make female toons in all of my Role Playing Games. I always tend to make her a sorcerer/mage of sorts. They're strengths are in their magic, not their armor. They can afford to wear powerful armor of their own choice not for utility, but for assistance in seducing their enemies.

    Rift has the soul part right. I love that there are so many different types of mages I can play. The armor part, though.... yeesh.


    If I were a powerful mage that could summon the very elements of the world to do my bidding, I sure as hell wouldn't do it wearing my grandmother's bath robe and slippers.

  9. #9
    Plane Touched Gerrard Ennui's Avatar
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    I enjoyed reading this post. Good points.

  10. #10
    Shadowlander
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    @Shiverra

    Thank you.

    And yes, but only if it doesn't involve painful surgery to achieve :P


    @jesterspec

    If I were a powerful mage that could summon the very elements of the world to do my bidding, I sure as hell wouldn't do it wearing my grandmother's bath robe and slippers.
    The mental picture of that made me giggle. I then proceeded to remove my slippers...

  11. #11
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aethren View Post

    It's not realistic:

    This one is by far the most common. Here's the issue:
    In a "realistic" setting, no woman could even hope to run around in full plate. This is a chart with bench pressing standards for males and female: http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLi...Standards.html

    In terms of strength alone, pound for pound, a woman is less than half as capable as any man, even on elite athlete levels. Even men had trouble wearing those back in the middle ages. A knight needed several helpers to put it on, and would ride a horse to battle to avoid being flat out exhausted from just walking in it. A set of plate mail just 2mm thick weighed in excess of 100 lbs, not counting the sword/axe.

    If you insist on realism, women are limited to leather or at best a single piece of light chain mail, no heavy weapons, and about half the stamina for running in it. Even as rogues or assassins, women would use seduction rather than force to deceive a target before the kill, and seldom take part in open conflict.

    So please lay off the realism thing. It's a fantasy game. No man could hope to wave around a sword 2x their mass without tearing ligaments and tendons, yet nobody complains about that.




    I kept getting this crap while I was in the army. Less than half, my ***. When I went out for the German PT medal, I had to bench 60% of my weight, males had to do 70%. I weighed nearly as much as my male counterparts too, and was able to 75%.

    2) Back in the middle ages, plate mail wearing men weren't humping it on foot. They rode reallllllllly big horses (destriers) and had squires to help them get into the saddle, because they couldn't get into it alone. Many died when they fell out of the saddle because they couldn't get back without help. That's why they dropped to half-plate, or ringmail with plate pieces.

    I own a set of ringmail. I have no trouble moving in it, and it is heavy (roughly 60 lbs).
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  12. #12
    Rift Disciple Benea's Avatar
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    One of the things I wished they were able to do is have distinctive styles for each race. As Eth, I don't feel different at all from any of the other races. I don't identify with my race--I could have picked any other race and it'd be the same.
    Eth Sentinel/Warden/Purifier

  13. #13
    Soulwalker
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    OP, your post is full of logical fallacies.
    Last edited by Ambris; 04-03-2011 at 07:08 AM.

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    Rift Disciple Miria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambris View Post
    OP, your post is full of logical fallacies.
    Agree, agree, agree. Without going into a long response to each of the OP's points (which I don't have the time for atm), let me say the argument is rife with misinformation and logic flaws.

  15. #15
    Soulwalker Darkeus's Avatar
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    Wait, aren't the Eth just a human culture? Why would they feel distinct?

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