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Thread: Todays Society and MMO's

  1. #1
    Telaran
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    Default Todays Society and MMO's

    First let me say that Trion has put together a great game here and they should have success with it -- even if it is short lived.

    I hear alot of us "old timers" here complaining about lack of difficulty, mmo on rails, hand holding, whatever you want to call it. The truth is that this attitude or easy mode style of play is a problem with society, not the game developers. Before coming to post this, I saw a Yahoo add "How to get a high paying job without a degree!". Sound familiar?

    All of todays art and entertainment pretty much sucks. This isn't just a problem with mmo's. The music sucks, the art sucks, the news sucks, the toys suck...pretty much everything. When I was a kid (remember I am one of the old timers) we worked hard to have fun. We built forts, we made go karts from scraps lying around in the garage, we staged armored battles with all the fallen limbs after a storm, we had erector sets and chemistry labs. I got my kid an erector set when he was younger -- no interest at all. Everyone wants everything easy mode, not just mmo's.

    We will see the games get better when the generation that designs them is more interested in creating art than a profit.

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  2. #2
    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zewlu View Post
    First let me say that Trion has put together a great game here and they should have success with it -- even if it is short lived.

    I hear alot of us "old timers" here complaining about lack of difficulty, mmo on rails, hand holding, whatever you want to call it. The truth is that this attitude or easy mode style of play is a problem with society, not the game developers. Before coming to post this, I saw a Yahoo add "How to get a high paying job without a degree!". Sound familiar?

    All of todays art and entertainment pretty much sucks. This isn't just a problem with mmo's. The music sucks, the art sucks, the news sucks, the toys suck...pretty much everything. When I was a kid (remember I am one of the old timers) we worked hard to have fun. We built forts, we made go karts from scraps lying around in the garage, we staged armored battles with all the fallen limbs after a storm, we had erector sets and chemistry labs. I got my kid an erector set when he was younger -- no interest at all. Everyone wants everything easy mode, not just mmo's.

    We will see the games get better when the generation that designs them is more interested in creating art than a profit.

    -Zewlu
    I completely disagree. It's not a symptom of society at large. Saying art sucks music sucks everything sucks etc etc is just the easy way out of asking the hard questions.

    As for the gaming industry, there are some great titles by companies that do great work (rockstar, bioware, etc) but I think you find that by large, a lot games are released unfinished (Empire Total War looking at you. Civ IV and V looking at you, Vanguard looking at you) because A) They make a ton of money selling expansions and add-ons and B) if they are publicly financed then all decisions go to the almighty dollar and it becomes like those crappy hollywood movies spit out every year that recycle plots and actors and etc etc.

    By and large I think you have it wrong. Players don't know what they want in a game. And if you can keep them entertained and having fun they wont care about what their "ideal" game is. But if a game isn't fun and engrossing, then players realize pretty quickly what they want isn't there...

  3. #3
    Shield of Telara Slowjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrasEarthshaker View Post
    I completely disagree.

    Players don't know what they want in a game. And if you can keep them entertained and having fun they wont care about what their "ideal" game is.
    Bam.

    Highly truncated from the original, which was intentional for brevity, but not to downplay the sway of the dollar -- because these are corporations, looking to profit... not looking to make anyone's idea of "THE BEST GAME EVAR!!"

    Budgets have gone up.

    Worlds have gotten smaller.

    Go figure.



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  4. #4
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zewlu View Post
    First let me say that Trion has put together a great game here and they should have success with it -- even if it is short lived.

    I hear alot of us "old timers" here complaining about lack of difficulty, mmo on rails, hand holding, whatever you want to call it. The truth is that this attitude or easy mode style of play is a problem with society, not the game developers. Before coming to post this, I saw a Yahoo add "How to get a high paying job without a degree!". Sound familiar?

    All of todays art and entertainment pretty much sucks. This isn't just a problem with mmo's. The music sucks, the art sucks, the news sucks, the toys suck...pretty much everything. When I was a kid (remember I am one of the old timers) we worked hard to have fun. We built forts, we made go karts from scraps lying around in the garage, we staged armored battles with all the fallen limbs after a storm, we had erector sets and chemistry labs. I got my kid an erector set when he was younger -- no interest at all. Everyone wants everything easy mode, not just mmo's.

    We will see the games get better when the generation that designs them is more interested in creating art than a profit.

    -Zewlu
    I agree with many of your sentiments - music does suck and so does its industry - at least for someone my age. As well, TV is terrible, the lack of originality and content is ridiculous.

    I also built forts as a child, went out to play - football, baseball, basketball, hi alai all kinds of outdoor games. When I see commercials on TV telling children to go outside and play and if you want ideas - go to www.havefunoutside etc I have to laugh and laugh very hard.

    I don't believe we will see any great leap forward in game design, content or playability that will suit everyones taste nor do I believe the creators of entertainment have a clue as to how to create something that appeals to not only the young, but also the young at heart which we "old timers" are certainly the majority.

    IMO, creativity has been stifled and stuffed into a bag never to see the light of day again. When you have 20 somethings, making decisions of what 40+ somethings find of interest - you're doomed to failure.

    Here's a perfect example (abeit not a gaming one): Beatles recently released on iTunes - now there entire catalog is finding a whole new generation and moving up the charts again. Of course, to me the Beatles are/were the best band ever in the history of music but it's interesting that no band in the last 30 years has come close to duplicating any measure of their success. The last band I remember to come close to the hysteria was Duran Duran - they blew it big time.

    So yes IMO, creativity is diminished these days. originality is a thing of the past.

  5. #5
    Prophet of Telara
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    Justin Beiber, Jersey Shore, Teen Mom, Twilight....

    Yea I think we are in a pretty crappy era.

    But while you can blame the masses for consuming the crap that is put out there, you should blame the older businessmen for milking it for all it's worth.

    The youngsters aren't running the show.
    Last edited by dinhosaur; 12-08-2010 at 09:52 AM.

  6. #6
    Shield of Telara Slowjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Excedrin View Post
    Here's a perfect example (abeit not a gaming one): Beatles recently released on iTunes - now there entire catalog is finding a whole new generation and moving up the charts again. Of course, to me the Beatles are/were the best band ever in the history of music but it's interesting that no band in the last 30 years has come close to duplicating any measure of their success. The last band I remember to come close to the hysteria was Duran Duran - they blew it big time.
    Not only were the Beetles almost half a century ago, the world was way too different back then for anything you are expecting to ever happen again.

    I saw it posted elsewhere, and I wish I could remember who said it to give that poster credit, but essentially;

    There is no such thing as World War II Part II.

    Which is to say, no one will ever do what Elvis did. No one will ever do what the Beetles did. Those are singular highlights in the history of music. That is why they have their status. It's one thing to say, "Oh, everything sucks because no one can do that again." but really, this is not sports. Michael Jordan -> Kobe Bryant -> LeBron James... you can see progress, you can see stats getting higher and higher. However, basketball is played on the same court now as it was played on 20 years ago.

    Music, art, and other forms of creative expression or entertainment are not nearly as limited, nor as quantifiable.

    While I admit that there is an abundance of stupid crap, I personally don't really know what that stupid crap is anymore because I don't watch TV, and I don't listen to the radio. I enjoy the same songs now, that I enjoyed years ago, because I choose not to get tired of them. I like listening to Billie Holiday late at night, because I choose not to ever let her voice grow old to me.

    Make that choice, and enjoy what you enjoy.

    Don't just complain and condemn everything.

    The corporations do not care about any sense of art, or enlightenment when they can reproduce content to reproduce money.



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  7. #7
    Telaran Narison's Avatar
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    Default Committee thinking

    I disagree about everything sucking these days. The things an average person not in a 3rd world country can accomplish with a computer are pretty awesome. This means there is A LOT of music and art being made that you would like, you are just not looking hard enough or in the right places. Toys are a bit different, since a regular person can't really produce them. MMOs are on the extreme end, being so costly and taking so many man hours to make even a poor game. Mostly, I just think it is nearly impossible to make anything good when you care about making a profit from it. It will always influence your decision. We enjoyed games like Everquest because they were based on "The Vision"tm and once they gave in to player demands everything went down the crapper. Wow is a more extreme case of this. It started off as a really fun game. Giving in to customer demands has made it less and less fun as time goes by. One of the biggest mistakes was the extra cash options to change name, race, sex, server and horde/alliance affiliation. This caused horrible behavior by a large number of players who knew there would be no consequences as long as they had enough money. Population imbalance became horrible on many servers and battlegroups because people simply paid to be on the winning side. Almost nothing truly great has ever been done by committee.

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    Champion WildeNight's Avatar
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    Idiocracy... it's happening!!

    Because Evil is Sexy

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    Plane Touched Terroni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zewlu View Post

    We will see the games get better when the generation that designs them is more interested in creating art than a profit.

    -Zewlu
    Art games are junk. There are plenty of them out there, and they are terrible, or mediocre at best.

    People see the best time as either the past, present, or future. You seem to think the past was the best time. It's your perspective, nothing more.

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    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
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    Why have an erector set, when one can learn programs like Auto CAD at earlier and earlier ages ;)

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    Ascendant Elizinator's Avatar
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    its sort of difficult for me ot believe the truth of these misanthropic statements when every generation makes them about the following one. im pretty sure that the "old timers" of that day didnt appreciate Elvis or the Bettles or Beethoven or anything that wasnt essentially identical to their own preferences.

    Music sucks, art sucks . . . by what definitions? these things are highly subjective, and maybe unquantifiable. you say you dont like it obviously, but it is a logical fallacy to say that this makes them bad. and its arrogant, too.

    from the comments here, most people seem to dislike popular media. well, luckily, theres a solution to that: disregard it. turn your radio to a new station. turn off your TV. there are plenty of places to get unconventional media, through podcasts and internet radio or TV. in doing so, perhaps you would discover some art you enjoy, but was not in plain evidence. its nearly tautological that as soon as art becomes popular, its obsolete and uninteresting.

    perhaps part of the problem is that most game companies ARE trying to make "the next big thing", if only for a little while. that means competition with established MMOs, and that essentially means conformity to the existing mode, with maybe a little innovation and refinement. not too much, mind you. Game designers are not the problem here, its the people paying the bills. Id say that a more or less independent designer might be a solution to that, but i think Richard Garriot essentially dispels that hope. the downside of pure creativity is that it is rarely recognized never popular enough to get bought . . .
    this word you use . . . i do not think it means what you think it means.


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    Champion Sals's Avatar
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    I think what the OP was trying to get across is nothing lasts anymore. Bands/artist never last they maybe have 5years of good times then there fame is gone. Bands like the Rolling Stones and U2, artists like Madonna or Michael Jackson that have lasted decades, we may never see again.
    We are becoming a throw away society. Stuff only holds our interest for a short period of time then we want something new again because we are bored of it.

    Everything that shines becomes the same old grime.
    Coda Rocklift Bard
    It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.

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