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Thread: under the radar vs. above the radar with respect to abusive chat

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default under the radar vs. above the radar with respect to abusive chat

    I just want to post something short and concise about censorship, or expressability in public chat, or ways of how to deal with people who try to stifle debate.


    I find that negative and cynical people usually have an easy time curtailing discussion of whatever topic on public chat. Public opinion is often with them, or often in part, is with them.

    Such people will usually use direct attacks such as "grow up" or "you must be a kid" or "stop whining" or "if you want to complain about the game, go to the forums" or any other form of strategy to get other people to stop talking in a channel they don't want to hear about it, which basically means you have no where to say it.

    A very simple example from World of Warcraft was when I asked for someone to "link" "Blacksmithing". It was an action often performed and required someone to shift-click their Blacksmithing button.

    You would get a comment like "Why don't you use XXX addon?" I would say "Because this is a bit easier." "Easier than using XXX?" "Yep. Can someone link blacksmithing?"

    If the "bully" in such events gets the upper hand, so to speak, because you feel offended or you take that person too seriously, or whatever, because other people chime in, and you are silenced, it very quickly becomes impossible to still ask for anything without losing public face.

    These sorts of "interventions" by people who want to silence people asking for help, or whatever else they are asking for or doing, is usually completely fair and allowed within a code of conduct.

    The problem arises that severe responses to such people that could actually get them to back off, usually are not.

    The net effect of that is that these forms of harassment are condoned and even supported, in that sense, while any form of rebuttal that would be more explicit and therefore more direct, is generally going to be something that you can get banned for in whatever way. The net effect of that is that these forms of bullying are promoted.

    I wonder how people feel about such things.

    Is it okay that "under the radar" bullying can go on unabated because "above the radar" responses to that generally fall under some Code of Conduct guideline, thereby making it impossible to publicly call attention to what is going on, or to publicly deride or oppose the one doing the bullying?

  2. #2
    Soulwalker
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    Suggesting you use an add-on or some sort of other more efficient route rather than spamming chat is bullying? Even though they're trying to help you save time and expand your knowledge of the game? Gotcha.

    BTW if your passive aggressive attitude on the forums is any indication of your in-game behaviors, you're going to have a hard time in RIFT. Or any MMO for that matter.

  3. #3
    Soulwalker
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    The funny thing is that passive-aggressive behaviours are allowed, but overtly aggressive behaviours are not, and that is what this topic is about.
    Last edited by xen111; 02-27-2017 at 06:58 AM.

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    Telaran MakeClericsGreatAgain's Avatar
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    Welcome to Rift , we get bullied by dev's and the people moderating forums here all the time here (voicing opinions about Trion in general here -in a bad light- will get you banned quite often.)

    If you like false promises, excuses and lies while they drink beers and take vacations, shrink your available content and remove it at times ( CQ , a good chunk of warfronts , Any viable good builds that used to be fun ) All while taking your money -> Then this is the game for you

    Please feel free to log in and chat with the remaining group of masochists left in the game.
    Last edited by MakeClericsGreatAgain; 02-27-2017 at 07:02 AM.

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    Soulwalker
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    In reference to the first portion of your argument, there's an effective tool called the "ignore" button for such cases. If it's extremely vulgar, take a screenshot and attach it to a customer support ticket.

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    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeClericsGreatAgain View Post
    Welcome to Rift , we get bullied by dev's and the people moderating forums here all the time here (voicing opinions about Trion in general here -in a bad light- will get you banned quite often.)

    If you like false promises, excuses and lies while they drink beers and take vacations, shrink your available content and remove it at times ( CQ , a good chunk of warfronts , Any viable good builds that used to be fun ) All while taking your money -> Then this is the game for you
    I like your D'va image, but let's stay on topic ;-).
    Last edited by xen111; 02-27-2017 at 07:01 AM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Umbrynn View Post
    In reference to the first portion of your argument, there's an effective tool called the "ignore" button for such cases. If it's extremely vulgar, take a screenshot and attach it to a customer support ticket.
    That's not the topic. I'm not asking for help. I am asking for your opinion as to a certain topic.

    I guess you have voiced your opinion by saying that a certain form of "help" is not abusive, but you are engaging now in the same form of "help" when it is not even being asked for, so I cannot take your opinion very seriously without you realizing that you are doing the thing I was describing, sorry.


    In reference to the first portion of your argument, there's an effective tool called the "ignore" button for such cases. If it's extremely vulgar, take a screenshot and attach it to a customer support ticket.
    The point is also that such forms of interfering with someone's chat or help requests is not vulgar, that was the whole point of what I was saying here. It goes "under the radar", hence you apparently do not even understand my question, because you are giving a response that falls completely outside of the scope of what these people are doing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Umbrynn View Post
    Suggesting you use an add-on or some sort of other more efficient route rather than spamming chat is bullying? Even though they're trying to help you save time and expand your knowledge of the game? Gotcha.
    I can also add here that in this particular example, I considered the addon described not more user friendly than the in-game menu. The in-game dialog for the trade skill was much more user friendly to my opinion than the addon advertized. In fact, I probably had it installed at that point, I just didn't use it for such measures.

    So, I was asking for the more usable, more useful, and more powerful option to be directed at me. Something that is routinely asked by anyone in that game, or at least it was at that time. I did not ask for help in knowing how to play my game, and as you can see, whether you can frame this as a difference of opinion or not, it is clear that the person answering must have thought I was stupid, and did not understand my reasons for asking, probably thinking that I did not have the addon installed.

    In fact I had what you could call a reasonable or understandable or justified (can't come up with the word) reason for choosing to do it this way. If that person disagrees with that, that is no reason for him to bully me into doing it the way he wants it to be done.
    Last edited by xen111; 02-27-2017 at 07:15 AM.

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    Soulwalker
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    What exactly is your topic for discussion then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Umbrynn View Post
    What exactly is your topic for discussion then?
    The topic is that, within the understanding that people might consider such attempts to "help" someone unwanted, and unhelpful... and also in the understanding that if you refuse such help, people often become abusive (that are trying to help you)...

    That right now on this forum I have all the time in the world to respond to you for instance, reasonably and well understood and in a calm manner.

    But in a public chat forum it is not so easy to disregard people because they can "take the stage". That is more hard to do in a forum. In a public chat channel people can completely change the topic of discussion by interfering in such a way.

    This can spin off into an entire debate as to whether you are allowed to ask the question, or request the answers.

    Well if you refuse the answer that is given (do it in another way) these people also often assume that they represent the entire crowd, and that if they are unwilling to help you (the way that you want it, then) that that must also apply to everyone else.

    But the point is that you usually do not have time to go into thoughtful debate about these things. You asked a simple question (for instance) but you are not getting a simple answer. You do not have time to go into debate that can stretch on for hours, in principe, until you get your answer, because the debate is only about whether you are allowed to ask it!!!

    So if you respond aggressively you are in violation of the Code of Conduct even though that is the only real way to get people to back off and to stop influencing public opinion as to whether you are allowed to ask the question (and get the answers) or not.



    If you want, I will also add that I often respond very abusively to people in the game of Overwatch who try to interfere with your choice of character. The reason being that these games are very short and you don't have time to go into debate about the thing.

    If you were to ignore such people, they would just keep up the abuse. The point is not necessarily that you are harmed by it, but the entire team plays less if someone is going to keep ... whining about your choice of character or someone else's. It absolutely does have an effect on the environment and it basically curtails thoughtful or meaningful or helpful communication in the channel, because everyone just keeps quiet and doesn't communicate, and no one really plays well, because someone is basically being abusive and no one puts a stop to it.

    That's just my opinion and the way I see things.

    To give more information: In that game, prior to the change to some character, that character was deemed to be an unwanted character in the game. Statistics showed that she had the highest overall win percentage of all characters, but that didn't stop players from trying to prevent you from playing it because it was supposedly a "bad" character.

    So these "opinions" and that "helpful advice" often does not even -- demonstrably -- coincide with reality.




    In this case players had that opinion because they had been whining about that character for a long time and the devs are going to change it. The fact that the devs were going to change it was to them an admission that the character was bad.

    Currently, this character probably has the absolute highest win percentage of anything. She was buffed to such an extreme extent that it is just the strongest character in the game, by far, overall.

    Responding to player's wishes caused an extreme imbalance.

    But in any case, back to the topic:

    - this form of "help" giving is often unwanted and can derail everything, because people are not content with just offering advice, they become abusive if you refuse it.
    Last edited by xen111; 02-27-2017 at 07:31 AM.

  10. #10
    Ascendant Artewig's Avatar
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    If they are trying to help and you don't want their help, then ignore it, simple as that. Keep looking for someone that will help you in the way that you want. If they want to debate whether or not you can ask for something, that is their perogative. You do not have to engage. If they personally abuse or harass you, report and ignore. That's it. If they circumvent that, contact a gm.

    There is nothing to be discussed here. People both in game and out of game will act like this. Nothing you can do about it. You have options when dealing with these situations so utilize them.
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  11. #11
    Soulwalker
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    I still don't understand how this pertains to RIFT in particular, being as all of your examples have been nothing but Blizzard games. In reference to dealing with players whom you have deemed unworthy of being part of your discussions, refer to what I said before along with Art, hit the "ignore" button. There's no discussion to be had about it, ignore them.

  12. #12
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    I think Artewig said it very well already. But since you asked for personal options: I personally think you're too sensitive. What is offensive / abusive / bullying to one person is perfectly fine and even helpful to another. If you feel personally attacked or offended, hit the ignore or the ignore & report button. Contact CS if they circumvent that and continue to harass.

    Welcome to the real world; without safe spaces and trigger warnings. If you decide to jump into the ocean (public chat) you may encounter sharks and piranhas (trolls and haters). You may also encounter friendly dolphins (the majority of players really). Your mileage may vary. Anonymity on the internet brings out the best and the worst in people. Some may be too shy to help in person but they will assist you in an anonymous environment. Others behave in a way that they would be too chicken to do in person. Them's the breaks.

  13. #13
    Rift Disciple wr3ckt4ngle's Avatar
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    With all due respect, I find the rationalization process here a little...well...off.

    Why is it perfectly ok for you to respond to players abusively in Overwatch but not okay for someone in WoW to basically offer you an alternative method to answering your public question?
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  14. #14
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artewig View Post
    There is nothing to be discussed here. People both in game and out of game will act like this. Nothing you can do about it. You have options when dealing with these situations so utilize them.
    This is the stifling of debate that I was talking about. You are doing the same thing. Move on folks, there is nothing to see.

    "Nothing you can do about it" while you are doing the same thing they are doing.

    If they are trying to help and you don't want their help, then ignore it, simple as that. Keep looking for someone that will help you in the way that you want. If they want to debate whether or not you can ask for something, that is their perogative. You do not have to engage. If they personally abuse or harass you, report and ignore. That's it. If they circumvent that, contact a gm.
    Other people keep quiet while that person takes the stage. That is really what happens.

    Since there is already a response in the channel waiting for an answer, and people don't know you are either ignoring that person, or have him on ignore, causing them to not know that you can't even see the messages, other people will remain silent and not answer because there is already an answer in the channel.

    I'm sorry I do not always write that well but... I was about to even share an example here.

    Before I even read your post.

    Picture this:

    Public mailing list. Person is always argumentative. I block him, don't see his messages. I still keep sending messages to the list. Very few people respond. Why? He keeps responding even though I have said I don't see his messages.

    But other people do not respond because they do not know that I do not see his messages, or it doesn't dawn on them. They think an answer has already been given and they are not going to repeat it for me.

    At some point I unblock him because I have begun to realize what is going on and in my test message he responds to me as if he has been doing that for months. Without me seeing it.

    Explaining why I am getting so few replies from other people.

    But that's not even the point right now. I am not asking for "help", and you are giving it, and that IS the point.

    I am not asking for your help here. I mean I am not in need of answers on how to deal with this. I'm not requesting your advice on how to deal with these people. Maybe you don't know the answer, you know. You think you do, but you don't. I've been dealing with this for a long time, and you don't have the answer. Maybe that sounds aggressive but it is so.

    In any case it is an answer that doesn't agree with me and that doesn't work. At the same time you say that there is no answer. So your answer is a contraction with itself. You want me to move along and not discuss it. Therefore you seem to have not an interest in helping me solve it.

    Another way of saying that is that you're trying to send me into the woods, providing me with a non-answer. You do not want the issue to be solved, so you will provide me with something that won't work.

    This is perfectly clear when you see that you are engaging in the same kind of tactics that I am here talking about. I am talking about people giving unwanted answers, and you engage in the same.

    So how could you possibly have an interest in helping people solve that?


    Quote Originally Posted by Umbrynn View Post
    I still don't understand how this pertains to RIFT in particular, being as all of your examples have been nothing but Blizzard games. In reference to dealing with players whom you have deemed unworthy of being part of your discussions, refer to what I said before along with Art, hit the "ignore" button. There's no discussion to be had about it, ignore them.
    Because there has just been a discussion on this forum about a guy who used "abusive language" directed at no one in particular and got chat-silenced for it, and because I have experienced this behaviour (someone telling me to shut up in the chat channel) myself and was part of the cause of me having to quit playing this game.

    The ignore button as said doesn't work because other people will not respond if that person is responding. I don't know if you have ever tried using it yourself, this advice you are giving. It doesn't work. All the same, it is your prerogative to want to advice it, but that doesn't mean you are right, or correct.

    At the same time I am still not asking for advice.

    This was a request for discussion, and you keep doing the same thing that the discussion is about: trying to prevent the discussion from happening.

    If you have nothing to say, then do not partake in the discussion. If you feel there is nothing to discuss, then do not partake in the discussion. But do not silence other people.

    Both of you keep saying "There is nothing to discuss, there is nothing to discuss" but this is what the topic was about: people trying to silence you. You are doing it now here.


    Again, I want to say that how could the people that engage in this kind of behaviour themselves EVER be the kind of people that could advize you on how to deal with it?
    Last edited by xen111; 02-28-2017 at 12:05 AM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by wr3ckt4ngle View Post
    With all due respect, I find the rationalization process here a little...well...off.

    Why is it perfectly ok for you to respond to players abusively in Overwatch but not okay for someone in WoW to basically offer you an alternative method to answering your public question?
    I have never said it was "okay" to respond abusively, those are my words, but you don't know what they mean.

    One way of "abusively" responding would be "Can you please shut up and drop it so we can play?". If you consider that abusive, that's up to you. Some people would find "shut up" abusive. I don't, but I use common language. I call it "disabusing" someone of bad behaviour.

    Sometimes you just have to stand up to someone and soft words do not always cut it. Is that your answer?

    What if I already knew the alternative method in answering my public question? What if that person was already aware I probably knew about the alternative method in answering my public question? What if that person was not content with me disregarding his advice in how to answer my public question? What if that person was not intending to merely offer me advice, but also to tell me how to do it? What if that person was more interested in getting me to do it another way, than offering me another way to do it?

    What if that person was trying to coerce me? Does that not count as bullying?

    What if that person was not content with me not doing as he said, and became a ***** about it? <-- self-censored before anyone says a thing.

    What if that person is not content with letting you off the hook, and will try to prevent other people from giving an answer?

    In this debate here several people are trying to curtail the discussion and would not be content in letting other people have it.

    So the topic moves to whether it is okay to have a discussion, which is exactly the topic being discussed here.

    So if I were to follow their advice, I would say: what makes you think I should engage these people?

    But if I were to do that, and not respond, then other people would not be inclined to respond, because I'm not being responsive.

    So the best way to respond is to respond by drawing the topic back to the topic of discussion. Is what I feel at least, and what I do right now. I hope.



    I realize the tangle I might be getting into right now in the sense of people saying "Oh, so you also try to shut people up."

    But I hope you realize people harassing you about e.g. your player choice or people being in general chatty is not the same thing. On this forum you also have no reason to silence me if you don't want to read it. It is not "in your way". It does not bother you in a personal way. So why would you tell people to shut up if you can easily avoid it?

    That leads to the next question: Is "ignoring" someone not "easily avoiding" something? No, because you cannot avoid people in a public chat channel you can't kick them out of. In general the people that try to shut you up in public chat do not only try to shut you up, but everyone. Everyone that partakes in the chatty behaviour is being told to shut up. For instance because they are "complaining" according to these people. Not all things are the same. Being disallowed to talk at all, or being told to shut up when you are harassing someone, are different things.

    If you feel "harassed" by general public chat, that is really your problem, not someone else's.
    Last edited by xen111; 02-28-2017 at 12:36 AM.

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