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Thread: 10 man raids only

  1. #1
    Fia
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    Default 10 man raids only

    For the past few months (especially since 3.0) I've seen many big guilds disband and a lot of smaller guilds form, mainly due to players leaving RIFT (for all kinds of reasons) and thus making it very hard to successfully do any 20man raids anymore (afaik, only a handful of guilds have the player capacity for doing 20man content atm). Furthermore it is getting increasingly difficult to recruit new players, as the population in RIFT is simply not high enough (at least if we're talking about raid players).

    This is why I would like to hear your (and especially TRIONs) thoughts on the idea of creating only 10man raids in upcoming content, instead of having 10man and 20man raids. I realize a lot of people want 20man raids but with the increasing difficulty of finding new raid members, I just don't see how this is supposed to work out in the future.

    Besides solving the raid member problem, there are other problems 10man raids would resolve:

    - less load on servers (and this is a HUUUUGE problem since 3.0, there are lags everywhere ...)
    - more fps in raids (and as performance is not one of RIFTs strong points, this would be a good thing!)
    - designing 10man content takes less effort than designing 20man content (probably not by much, but meh ...)

    Also, as a "compensation" for not having 20man content, 10man raids could be longer (more bosses) and/or have a "normal" and a "hardmode" version (yes I know, TRION doesn't want hardmodes, but oh well ... I still have hope :).



    TL;DR: Only 10man raid content in upcoming content, as there seem to be more advantages to it than having both 10man and 20man content. :D
    Last edited by Fia; 01-13-2015 at 01:36 AM.
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  2. #2
    Plane Touched
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    i like your suggestion. You pointed very clearly why this would be a benefit for Rift. One more from me:

    As a guild with around 25 members (that you need to fill a 20 person raid) it is not possible to make two 10 person raids. Just because people tend to raid only with the strongest tank and healers.

    I would also suggest to make some really hard raids for 5 persons. Like Expert dungeons just way harder with many mechanics that force players to know their classes and roles.

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    Pretty sure the next game, or even if Rift changes its focus, that comes out with a purely 10-man raiding schematic and focuses around it, will dominate the MMO industry.

    Why?
    For one, we are growing out of these large scale raids because of the time required behind it (Same reason 40 man raiding fell off)

    1. Less people, less hassle, less roster # pressure, less competency pressure
    2. more flexibility with times
    3. easier to tune as well as easier to make them complex and puzzle-ish
    4. you can structure them around souls much more effectively because overlap will be minimal (i.e. you might not have the luxury of two raid healers, so having a boss revolve around that one soul's raid healing capability will make it so much more fun OR if not available, people will have to restructure their raid to rethink how to handle it)
    5. easier to bug fix [since testing will only need 10 players] and will be easier to scale
    6. fun, because you can challenge people with interesting gameplay
    [ an example I was discussing with a friend of mine: Aurora Saber (upgrades from Lightblade), x stats with effect - replaces bloom with blooming field, whereby once bloom is used, anyone caught within the area of effect of the swing of this sword (actual graphical swing) will get healed for 75% of the value.
    This adds intricacy, makes weapon selection interesting and applicable, moreover adds a flavor of weapon swapping as needed.
    This would only work in a 10-man environment; 20 man is too rushed and frantic]
    7. Souls can be balanced around bosses rather than each other [again, less people in a raid so Boss 1 will require 2 warriors running these two separate specs or else the raid will have a tougher time!], so one class won't feel more OP than the other as all are needed in their own respect
    8. Moreover, just takes less time to build graphically since you only need to house 10 people rather than 20 people.

    I know if there was a 10-man only ariding game, I would be there.
    It's just awesome to build that perfect 10-man team that you **** face with.
    It comes down to personal skill, more so because no overlap to pick you up, and it'll depend on raid-leader's competence and raid's cohesion to excel through raids.
    Last edited by Solaxys; 01-13-2015 at 05:47 AM.

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    Sword of Telara
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    I agree. The glory days of Rift are behind us, for it to continue with any success it will need to refocus on smaller content, more often.

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    Fia
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    Quote Originally Posted by esc2heaven View Post
    i like your suggestion. You pointed very clearly why this would be a benefit for Rift. One more from me:

    As a guild with around 25 members (that you need to fill a 20 person raid) it is not possible to make two 10 person raids. Just because people tend to raid only with the strongest tank and healers.

    I would also suggest to make some really hard raids for 5 persons. Like Expert dungeons just way harder with many mechanics that force players to know their classes and roles.
    Thanks. :)

    Yes, a comeback of master level dungeons would be awesome, but the problem is Daglar has already said that this is not going to happen, as back in classic RIFT (where we had master level dungeons), statistically only very few people actually made use of those dungeons, so it's not worth the effort to make master level dungeons available. A real shame imo. :/
    Last edited by Fia; 01-13-2015 at 08:23 AM.
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    I personally am not a supporter of this as I raid for challenging mechanics.

    Only allowing for 10 players to be in a raid eliminates many mechanics that raiders could enjoy. For example Regulos, endless eclipse required 3 tanks and 3 platforms. This leaves you with 7 raiders, take away a raid healer, tank healer, and 2 supports. This means you would only have 3 dps. Souls such as defiler could not be used or you would be left with just 2 dps. While it is obvious that you can make 10 man raids with challenging mechanics such as those on unglock, it will limit the amount you can do in a raid.

    I would like to change your stance on this and in place of eliminating 20 man raids simply bump up old 10 man raids like they have in the past. This would allow for small guilds to still raid a few nights out of the week while not limiting their plans for future raids.

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    @ Fia: That could be passed if there aren't too much other raid contents. Would like the idea too to get more smaller instances than a few big ones: It is much easier to reach. The master mode dungeons were really hard at a certain time... and when they were no more hard, we raides other instances. Thats why they weren't frequented.

    @ FireFrostz: There would not be Encounters where you need such numbers of tanks or people for such Special duties. Naturally that wouldn't work.

    I mean, challenging 10-men-instances would also separate the wheat from the chaff, so it makes it more interesting...

    for more 10- and less til no 20-men-instances!
    Last edited by Mausea; 01-13-2015 at 08:39 AM.
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  8. #8
    Ascendant Solaxys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireFrostz View Post
    I personally am not a supporter of this as I raid for challenging mechanics.

    Only allowing for 10 players to be in a raid eliminates many mechanics that raiders could enjoy. For example Regulos, endless eclipse required 3 tanks and 3 platforms. This leaves you with 7 raiders, take away a raid healer, tank healer, and 2 supports. This means you would only have 3 dps. Souls such as defiler could not be used or you would be left with just 2 dps. While it is obvious that you can make 10 man raids with challenging mechanics such as those on unglock, it will limit the amount you can do in a raid.

    I would like to change your stance on this and in place of eliminating 20 man raids simply bump up old 10 man raids like they have in the past. This would allow for small guilds to still raid a few nights out of the week while not limiting their plans for future raids.
    Not necessarily; in fact, this allows for souls like pre 3.0 warlord to have a place in raid.
    So you need 3 tanks but more DPS, well time to start working in a DPS-Tank and see how that fares! You need a DPS-healer, well there's the use for an icar of vanilla! You need a massive ST healer with limited flexibility, Sentinel! You need a strong ST healer with support options? Chloro!

    Mechanics can be built around souls or souls can be tweaked to meet mechanics, either way 10-man focused will make you think about how to structure your raid better.

    Here's an example:
    20 man Reggie v. 10 man Reggie

    Recruitment for 20 man Reggie:
    LF 3 Tanks [one who can handle middle portal], two chloros, one defiler, one warden, bard, archon, and rest DPS!

    Recruitment for 10 man Reggie:
    LF 2 DPS-Tanks [WL or Druid/Justicar], a Riftstalker for MT and mid portal, one chloro who can synth swap well, a defiler-puri hybrid with multi-shield+multi-link support, a shamicar/temperator (liberator/tempest), 48 BM, bard/nb hybrid, and two full DPS [one with dual interrupt; the other with a purge]

    See how specific it has to be to cover the same mechanics in comparison to 20? In 20 man, there is SO much overlap that people can pick up your slack and you'll just get by unscathed. In 10 man, everyone matters, every ounce of DPS matters, and strategy goes beyond just mechanics, its structuring your raid team based on its strengths and weaknesses around those mechanics... ooo the theorycrafting *droooooooooooool*

    There will just be no "meh, its w.e, we can carry"; its holy ****, you are important and you need to do your job well!
    Last edited by Solaxys; 01-13-2015 at 08:43 AM.

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    @Mausea: I am glad you agree, hopefully they wont rush to this decision if indeed their is a decision. Who wants to raid if we are just going to rinse and repeat the mechanics in IDH.

  10. #10
    Fia
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireFrostz View Post
    I personally am not a supporter of this as I raid for challenging mechanics.

    Only allowing for 10 players to be in a raid eliminates many mechanics that raiders could enjoy. For example Regulos, endless eclipse required 3 tanks and 3 platforms. This leaves you with 7 raiders, take away a raid healer, tank healer, and 2 supports. This means you would only have 3 dps. Souls such as defiler could not be used or you would be left with just 2 dps. While it is obvious that you can make 10 man raids with challenging mechanics such as those on unglock, it will limit the amount you can do in a raid.

    I would like to change your stance on this and in place of eliminating 20 man raids simply bump up old 10 man raids like they have in the past. This would allow for small guilds to still raid a few nights out of the week while not limiting their plans for future raids.
    Well yes, you obviously cannot design 10man content the same way 20man content is designed, but this does not mean that 10man content has to be easier than 20man and/or that you have to pass on certain souls. While it is true that 20man content requires more class roles, this could be achieved by doing 10man bosses which require different roles, e.g. Boss 1 could need a defiler while Boss 2 would need more tanks or something like that. A good example of this would be the raid Ulduar from a certain game that starts with a "W", or GA from RIFT's SL content, well at least it didn't feel restricting to me (in my humble, biased view :).

    The problem I am seeing right now is that because of this disparity of large guilds getting most of the active raid players (obivously, as raid players tend to join larger guilds, i.e. guilds that are able to actually do 20man raids on a regular basis), large guilds have overloaded rosters while smaller guilds are not even able to do 20man raids without having to resort to inviting random players or forging guild alliances (and this in itself can be a problem, as maintaining guild alliances is not always an easy thing to do ...). Sure, bumping up old content here and there is fun, but it gets boring reeeaaaally quickly, especially for players that have been here from the start (like myself).

    The other problem I see with bumping up 10man content while also having 20man content is that larger guilds will get gear a lot faster than smaller guilds would, as well as experience content that smaller guilds will probably only see in the next raiding tier, when e.g. T1 is on farm status for random groups and everyone else is already overgeared anyway. To me, this seems unfair and imo this will only get worse in the future, as the population is simply not high enough to sustain more than a handful of large guilds.
    Last edited by Fia; 01-13-2015 at 09:04 AM.
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    @ FireFrostz:

    IDH is located between dungeon and raid instances. Would be silly to put only more slivers into the game.

    I guess, we all mean: Less til no 20-men-instances but more 10-men-instances, with more bosses or harder mechanics and/or higher requirements to the individuel player - but available for more guilds and raidgroups, who cannot effort 25+ raidready people all the time.
    Last edited by Mausea; 01-13-2015 at 09:02 AM.
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  12. #12
    Ascendant July13th's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by esc2heaven View Post
    I would also suggest to make some really hard raids for 5 persons. Like Expert dungeons just way harder with many mechanics that force players to know their classes and roles.
    Rift had a harder mode for dungeons called Master. I do not think it will come back but I would welcome it back. I think the original problem was rewards and time of release in chocolate.

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    I think big raids are much more fun. I'm sure it's a matter of taste, but I wouldn't bother trying to raid if there were only 10 mans.

    The raider population is small because raids are so hard to access. Developers went too far this time, it takes far too much time (and / or money) for a first timer to get into raiding.

    I've seen a number people say that Rift's raiding is similar to TBC WoW raiding. And it's true in some ways, there are multiple tiers, there are no normal / hardmodes. But where's Karazhan? That's the main difference.

    In TBC WoW, you had Karazhan at the bottom of progression that made the system click. It was a simple raid, a huge raid, with a lot of bosses. When you hit max level, you did face some grinding in 5 mans, some questing, some reputation grinding. But you could enter Karazhan pretty quickly. Then most casual players would do that raid once a week for a very long time, half a year, maybe even more. But it didn't get too boring, because the raid was huge, far from all groups finished it, it wasn't linear, you could follow many pathes. There were many bosses and lots of gear you could get from it. First bosses were very easy, then it got a bit harder, then harder, then harder. It was easy to start raiding and kill some bosses, but by the time you were able to finish a full first tier raid, you went from a newb to someone who had a decent understanding of raiding.

    And importantly, Karazhan was a fun raid. A theatre encounter where a wolf is chasing Red Riding Hood, or Romeo and Juliette encounter, chess fight? Hilarious, and it clicked with every new player, because they knew these stories and things from outside the game. Fights in ball rooms, dinner tables, stables. A huge memorable medieval castle with fun and often funny encounters.

    It was a big raid that got majority of population to do some raiding, and then many of them would get hooked and join raiding guilds and progress in tougher raids.

    Rift raiding starts at TBC equivalent of Gruul / Magtheridon or maybe even later. There's a big gap between hitting the level cap and raiding, and you have to fill it with countless hours of 5 mans, PVP, dailies and weeklies. It's easy to get overwhelmed and bored to death before you even reach raids. And if you do reach Rift's raids, it's basically a swim or sink environment. It's not that Rift's raiding is tough, but it doesn't start softly, new players don't get eased into raiding, so I think a new player will mostly have a pretty bad first experience and often get ridiculed a lot. Then most normal smart people will decide that they have better things to do in their life.

  14. #14
    Fia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yakmir View Post
    The raider population is small because raids are so hard to access. Developers went too far this time, it takes far too much time (and / or money) for a first timer to get into raiding.
    I disagree, especially when you are a member of a large guild. As I said, potential raid players will tend to join guilds that are able to play through all the available raid content, i.e. large guilds. Imo 20man raids are hard to access because of the lack of raider population, not the other way around (as you suggest it). Also the first boss of MS is so ridiculously easy (the fight is practically a joke), imo your argument simply isn't valid in this regard.
    Last edited by Fia; 01-13-2015 at 02:38 PM.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fia View Post
    I disagree, especially when you are a member of a large guild. As I said, potential raid players will tend to join guilds that are able to play through all the available raid content, i.e. large guilds. Imo 20man raids are hard to access because of the lack of raider population, not the other way around (as you suggest it). Also the first boss of MS is so ridiculously easy (the fight is practically a joke), imo your argument simply isn't valid in this regard.
    New people don't start in raiding guilds. New people start alone, then vast majority of them join normal casual guilds, they level up, then they mostly toy around with various options - PVP, instances / raids, dimension and what not. If some of these options attract their attention and they get hooked, they might go find a specialized guild.

    There's nothing special about "raiders." They are just casual folk who enjoyed raiding and stopped being so casual. Eventually they'll get burnt out and become casual again. Then new casuals will become raiders.

    It's a chicken and egg situation. If you let more casual folk enjoy raids, more of them will become dedicated raiders. If you place raids behind massive grinds, make entry raids too difficult for beginners, few of them will get hooked.
    Last edited by Yakmir; 01-13-2015 at 03:28 PM.

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