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Thread: Fix Expert Dungeons

  1. #1
    Telaran
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    Exclamation Fix Expert Dungeons

    I recently geared up my lvl 65 warrior to tank expert dungeons. Once I was fully geared in upgraded-crafted equipment, I queued up for experts as a tank. I got in, and immediately got kicked because apparently my stats were not high enough and the first boss of nightmare coast would 2 shot me. I was told that I needed at least 115k HP to tank experts.

    So.. I spent even more plat to gear myself as dps, so I could pick up a few tank pieces in experts. I picked up 3 pieces, and even spent the cash on the collector's edition to unlock earring slots and tidewalker so I could equip 3 different pieces of equipment that I apparently wasn't allowed to use yet because I hadn't spent the cash.... Back to the main subject..

    I still have only 112k HP. Tanking experts is still extremely difficult. Look, If the only way to tank expert dungeons with reasonable difficulty, is by already having all the pieces that normally drop in experts, why should anybody bother to tank them at all?

    The damage needs to be scaled down considerably, the bosses are way over tuned, even the trash is over tuned..

    I'm not looking to make expert dungeons E-Z mode, and I don't want to see an overload of mechanics that will insta-kill you if you stand in the wrong spot.. We already have plenty of that.

    A good change would be like what was done for some of the Nightmare Rift bosses, where if you don't pay attention to mechanics, the boss will gain a heal/shield.



    All I'm saying is, if you meet the requirements to get in, it shouldn't be almost impossible to complete.

  2. #2
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    Have you used 1st or 2nd tier runes on your gear? Dream orbs as well? Is your planar focus filled with lvl61+ essences? 115k hp is perfectly doable with no gear at all from experts, it just requires a bit of platinum and void stone investment possibly.

  3. #3
    Rift Master krabcat's Avatar
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    as a tank you should have 100k+ for experts, which is very possible with crafted gear, more is better ofc. liberators and chloros have it harder but i have seen them manage assuming that the tank+party does not fail too many mechanics. keep in mind that you will be using all of your cooldowns pretty frequently, make sure you have runes and dream orbs, you dont need the very best but every little bit helps. experts are getting a bit easier each week as more people get past the minimum gear requirement and even into raid gear.

    try not to take it too personally, some people expect everyone to have started at the same time and cant fathom how anyone could be lesser geared than they are
    Last edited by krabcat; 12-09-2014 at 09:13 PM.
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  4. #4
    Telaran
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    Yes I am fully maxed with Savant Dream Orbs, (all endurance) and runes on everything.

  5. #5
    Shadowlander Feraldira's Avatar
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    a good tank with a good healer can do any NT expert dungeon with 110k health. by knowing the mechanics and careful management of CDs you can keep up enough mitigation for them to keep you up, and by carefully following mechanics and not always going for the "full burn" method you can soften a lot of major damage spikes.

    as far as the first boss in Nightmare coast goes, if you tank him right, he should under no circumstances touch you while buffed. and if you have any movement buffs (Justicar's ranged spam etc) you can get away with only getting hit a few times the whole encounter.
    alot of other mechanics can be predicted and avoided (no tank should have an excuse to take more than 1 tick of damage from Izbithu's Digestion if at all on thetoknoth(sp?) fight) so know your fights well.

    Also check your healers, if you put up a 50% health shield and receive no healing while it is up, you may need another healer. this has happened to me several times and it always seems it is those healers that complain the most about the tank being squishy.

    if all else fails, bring along a defiler or necromancer for the link. also saboteurs with chocking gas bomb does wonders for trash pack pulls. I remember when I first started doing NT Experts, people expected 2 healers on Gyel Fortress. never the less keep focusing on getting better tank gear, few things make a fight harder than having a soft tank.

  6. #6
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dulge View Post
    Yes I am fully maxed with Savant Dream Orbs, (all endurance) and runes on everything.
    You have surely something missing. Do you have the Essences 61+ with more than 100 Endurance? Did you Upgrade every Craftingitem? did you get the right buffpotions? did you spent your EE Points into Water and Life tree? Did you take one of the common skilltress?

    What ever you have done and you are complaining about. That's not true. You can get 115k HP without doing any Experts at all.

    One hint for your upcoming playing. Get into a guild because that is for what they are made.
    Pugs are always complaining and need better equipped players.

  7. #7
    Ascendant forbiddenlake's Avatar
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    Done!

    > * Reduced the difficulty of expert dungeons. Trash now hits for 20% less, and bosses auto attack less frequently, reducing the tank healing requirements.

  8. #8
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by forbiddenlake View Post
    Done!

    > * Reduced the difficulty of expert dungeons. Trash now hits for 20% less, and bosses auto attack less frequently, reducing the tank healing requirements.


    Sounds like a welcome update. I will have to try a few experts as tank to see how much of an improvement it is. At least they're making an effort.

  9. #9
    Rift Master Uruketo's Avatar
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    Unfortunately your request was granted in earnest. I realize you didn't ask for EZ mode but that's what we have now. The experts have become a joke. Where good tank/healer combos could chain pull single trash pulls before now a good combo can simultaneously pull multiple groups of trash at once and dps them down on the run towards the bosses. Clearing an expert shouldn't be done in 15 minutes without raid gear but it is now. The first dungeon clearing with the reduced difficulty was exciting but that quickly grew to boredom. In the future, be careful what you ask for.
    Uruketo, 70 Warrior
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    http://www.grievancegaming.org/

  10. #10
    Ascendant MoonfireSpam's Avatar
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    Granted this was with raid gear and buffs as of when I stopped raiding (4 piece t3, other spots t2), but my avatar image's hp was achieved at Lv 60.

    With lv 65 expert entry gear having significantly more hp passively, I really do not see how you could -not- get 115k passively.

    The experts have always been designed with the use of a support in mind for groups that are not clad in raid gear. Actual support, not someone who chooses to be a 3rd dps.

    But hey, apparently Trion doesn't care, so I guess that means I shouldn't care either.
    So long, and thanks for all the fish~

  11. #11
    Telaran
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    I got kicked from EC once on the way to the 2nd boss after we wiped on the 2nd trash pack there because the healer said i was taking too much damage and didnt have my gear upgraded. Just for reference i had 122k hp and was missing one item that wasnt upgraded to 65 level, and was blowing every cooldown i had.

    Sometimes its not the tanks fault, there are bad healers just like there are bad dps and tanks.

  12. #12
    Rift Master krabcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volitan View Post
    Sometimes its not the tanks fault, there are bad healers just like there are bad dps and tanks.
    i have had MANY bad healers, it was the sole factor in making a cleric healing tank spec(before they changed it to be even easier). back in SL T1 gear it was worth losing a bit of health to be able to do all the experts with a healer maxing out at 1k hps.

    bad dps is usually not too much of a problem since there are 2 more to make up for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoonfireSpam View Post
    The experts have always been designed with the use of a support in mind for groups that are not clad in raid gear. Actual support, not someone who chooses to be a 3rd dps.
    an actual support spec does not add enough dps from its buffs to make up for losing a full dpser. help with healing can be added but that is about as far as that support spot gets towards being useful otherwise.
    Last edited by krabcat; 12-13-2014 at 06:10 AM.
    everything is inextricably inter-twingled
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by krabcat View Post
    An actual support spec does not add enough dps from its buffs to make up for losing a full dpser. help with healing can be added but that is about as far as that support spot gets towards being useful otherwise.
    A Support's role isn't just to buff the group's damage; it's to increase chance of success by augmenting other aspects of the group, which can be damage (the one that unfortunately 99%+ of the community focuses on exclusively), healing, max health, damage reduction etc. If the existence of a support means that the tank won't receive as huge damage spikes via additional mitigation or those spikes will be less spiky via additional max health, then it means that the chances of success are increased. But the majority only care about speedclearing. Which is why being support in a 5man will most likely see you mocked and kicked.

    The Class development team could have "enforced" the support role by simply stripping all dps specs from raid cooldowns and raid buffs and locking them deep into support roles. But I guess other reasons (PvP? QQ from dps?) prevented them from doing so.

  14. #14
    Rift Master krabcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Mits View Post
    A Support's role isn't just to buff the group's damage; it's to increase chance of success by augmenting other aspects of the group, which can be damage (the one that unfortunately 99%+ of the community focuses on exclusively), healing, max health, damage reduction etc. If the existence of a support means that the tank won't receive as huge damage spikes via additional mitigation or those spikes will be less spiky via additional max health, then it means that the chances of success are increased..
    i did mention that sometimes help is needed with healing, support spec themselves offer very little in terms of healing except for bard, and even then it is not a ton ST. it is pretty rare that 5% damage reduction will make all of the difference even with the extra 1.7k health that the tank would get from the endurance boost. even factoring in all of the small boosts that the tank would get from a support it does not add up to much. a better option would be something like defiler/necro for a decently sized link plus almost regular damage damage or extra burst healing when needed(depending on which one you have)
    everything is inextricably inter-twingled
    ~Phillip Bertoni 1949-2011

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by krabcat View Post
    it is pretty rare that 5% damage reduction will make all of the difference even with the extra 1.7k health that the tank would get from the endurance boost
    It does sound small, doesn't it? However, that 1.7k hp plus 5% damage reduction is actually almost measurable. Let's take two cases. Tank with 110k - Damage needed to die without support: 110k. Damage needed to die with support: 117579. That's about 7.5k effective hp. It's higher than the difference that the topic creator created the thread for. We see 105k and 110k tanks being told to go and gear up (not that it's hard however, I mean Meo showed 132k hp at lvl60), which is possibly similar to the 40k dps requirement when forming a premade.

    But players (generalisation) do not care about that. They expect that the tank and healer should on their own be able to handle it without a support, while they themselves as dps do not even care to use consumables to make a fight last 10 seconds shorter. And that to me is called hypocrisy.

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