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Thread: An alternative to "tank gear".

  1. #1
    Ascendant the_real_seebs's Avatar
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    Default An alternative to "tank gear".

    So, in general, Rift is really good about limiting gear sets. Melee clerics have Faith in Action, which converts stats.

    But right now, we have +Block and +Deflect, and +Toughness, and gear with more or less endurance, so you end up with tanks needing two gear sets, and you have to have more than one version of otherwise very similar items to itemize separately for block and defense.

    My suggestion: Bake this into gifts, or provide a role-toggle. Have a new stat named something like Competence. Then, rogues get an ability which lets them convert Competence into either Dexterity, or Deflect+Endurance. Warriors can convert into either Strength or Block+Endurance. And so on. Similarly, have a stat that goes in the place where Toughness is, and the same toggle determines whether it converts into (primary damage stat) or Toughness.

    This would let us reduce the Gear Set Tax a little.
    You can play WoW in any MMO. You don't have to play WoW in RIFT. Oh, and no, RIFT is not a WoW clone. Not having fun any more? Learn to play, noob! I don't speak for Riftui, but I moderate stuff there. Just came back? Welcome back! Here's what's changed. (Updated for 2.5!)

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    No. Its not eve hard as it stands to get multiple sets of gear (tank/dps being the "hardest"). Within a week of hitting 60, I had full expert DPS gear and started working on my tank set. A week after that, I had a tank set. Both good enough for experts and T1 raiding.

    Use drops, do zone events, don't expect upgrades from experts so buy that shiny tank sword for IS.

    The stats are there for a reason, to stop people from trying to do everything without any experience. If what your truly desiring is no trinity, and masking it behind the guise of "easier to gear up" then plz go look somewhere else. Alot of us really do enjoy the trinity aspect of it.
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    Ascendant forbiddenlake's Avatar
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    * Faith in Action doesn't exist anymore
    * Clerics can't Deflect
    * Rogues can't Block
    * Rogue and Cleric tank gear is itemized separately (yes?)
    * Avoidances (B/P/D) aren't worth much in this game, Endurance is king

    That said, I do dislike needing two gear sets, one for DPS/Heal (at least most of us can combine those) and one for tanking.

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    Ascendant the_real_seebs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by forbiddenlake View Post
    * Faith in Action doesn't exist anymore
    Well, not as such, but the underlying idea of adapting stats works better.

    * Clerics can't Deflect
    * Rogues can't Block
    Presumably, rogues would convert stats to deflect, and clerics to block.

    * Rogue and Cleric tank gear is itemized separately (yes?)
    Well, yes.

    * Avoidances (B/P/D) aren't worth much in this game, Endurance is king

    That said, I do dislike needing two gear sets, one for DPS/Heal (at least most of us can combine those) and one for tanking.
    I'm not able to think of obvious examples of gear which is DPS but not heal, or heal but not DPS.
    You can play WoW in any MMO. You don't have to play WoW in RIFT. Oh, and no, RIFT is not a WoW clone. Not having fun any more? Learn to play, noob! I don't speak for Riftui, but I moderate stuff there. Just came back? Welcome back! Here's what's changed. (Updated for 2.5!)

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    Ascendant forbiddenlake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_real_seebs View Post
    I'm not able to think of obvious examples of gear which is DPS but not heal, or heal but not DPS.
    Healers tend to prefer SP. DPS may or may not prefer crit power -- I haven't actually gotten into that.

  6. #6
    Ascendant the_real_seebs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reticularize View Post
    No. Its not eve hard as it stands to get multiple sets of gear
    Who said anything about it being hard? It's just annoying to keep track of.

    The stats are there for a reason, to stop people from trying to do everything without any experience.
    No, they aren't, and even if they were they wouldn't be working. Since what they encourage you to do is use the thing you're experienced at to get a bunch of gear for a new set, then suddenly switch to a new role you've never played.

    If what your truly desiring is no trinity, and masking it behind the guise of "easier to gear up" then plz go look somewhere else. Alot of us really do enjoy the trinity aspect of it.
    There is no conceivable way that anything I said here could be even remotely related to some kind of "get rid of trinity" model. I like Rift's role allocation (which is not "trinity", since there's four roles). I like role differentiation. I just think it's silly that you can fill three roles on one set of gear, then you suddenly have to have a completely different set of gear with basically no overlap for the fourth role.

    Gearing separately for each role doesn't add depth, fun, or value. Rift's already done a much better job of this than some games have; they could improve further.
    You can play WoW in any MMO. You don't have to play WoW in RIFT. Oh, and no, RIFT is not a WoW clone. Not having fun any more? Learn to play, noob! I don't speak for Riftui, but I moderate stuff there. Just came back? Welcome back! Here's what's changed. (Updated for 2.5!)

  7. #7
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    Who said anything about it being hard? It's just annoying to keep track of.
    Saveequip macros....

    No, they aren't, and even if they were they wouldn't be working. Since what they encourage you to do is use the thing you're experienced at to get a bunch of gear for a new set, then suddenly switch to a new role you've never played.
    Or actually grinding out PvE experiences to learn the fights so you have an idea what to do as a tank.

    There is no conceivable way that anything I said here could be even remotely related to some kind of "get rid of trinity" model. I like Rift's role allocation (which is not "trinity", since there's four roles). I like role differentiation. I just think it's silly that you can fill three roles on one set of gear, then you suddenly have to have a completely different set of gear with basically no overlap for the fourth role.
    Your chief complaint
    so you end up with tanks needing two gear sets
    You either want gearsets removed or the quadrinity (just made it up for you) messed with. That is why i said
    Ifwhat your truly desiring
    which just addresses the second option.

    Gearing separately for each role doesn't add depth, fun, or value. Rift's already done a much better job of this than some games have; they could improve further.
    I wouldn't say they add fun, they add replay value, which is very important to an MMO. Gating content for gear like this simply makes you wait and come back. In short, its a moneymaking tactic which isn't that bad compared to lock boxes. But that is an argument for a different thread.
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  8. #8
    Ascendant July13th's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_real_seebs View Post
    So, in general, Rift is really good about limiting gear sets. Melee clerics have Faith in Action, which converts stats.

    But right now, we have +Block and +Deflect, and +Toughness, and gear with more or less endurance, so you end up with tanks needing two gear sets, and you have to have more than one version of otherwise very similar items to itemize separately for block and defense.

    My suggestion: Bake this into gifts, or provide a role-toggle. Have a new stat named something like Competence. Then, rogues get an ability which lets them convert Competence into either Dexterity, or Deflect+Endurance. Warriors can convert into either Strength or Block+Endurance. And so on. Similarly, have a stat that goes in the place where Toughness is, and the same toggle determines whether it converts into (primary damage stat) or Toughness.

    This would let us reduce the Gear Set Tax a little.
    Not sure if this is best solution but I am for 1 set of gear. I personally think that the soul tree would be a good way to set aside Tanks from DPS. Runes would need a total rework though.

  9. #9
    Ascendant Meteorblade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_real_seebs View Post
    I'm not able to think of obvious examples of gear which is DPS but not heal, or heal but not DPS.
    Simple example...

    A pyromancer wants gear with lots of crit power.
    A chloromancer wants gear with lots of spell power.

    As a healer it's more important to have guaranteed higher baseline heal values than occasionally crit-heal. People who play casters at an end-game / progression level will have two sets of gear, one crit power heavy, the other spell power heavy depending on which role they're currently doing.

  10. #10
    Telaran Night Sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reticularize View Post
    No. Its not eve hard as it stands to get multiple sets of gear (tank/dps being the "hardest"). Within a week of hitting 60, I had full expert DPS gear and started working on my tank set. A week after that, I had a tank set. Both good enough for experts and T1 raiding.

    Use drops, do zone events, don't expect upgrades from experts so buy that shiny tank sword for IS.

    The stats are there for a reason, to stop people from trying to do everything without any experience. If what your truly desiring is no trinity, and masking it behind the guise of "easier to gear up" then plz go look somewhere else. Alot of us really do enjoy the trinity aspect of it.
    I don't know what gear you talking about but in case of example tank who got 60 and is going to gear up , full gear for infinity stones(+runes) is not enough even to do experts - you end up with around 39k hp in case of warrior tank - and this is not enough to do experts in pugs not mention about t1 raids...(90% of pug healers will be not skilled enough, knowing their class? to keep you up..)
    Of course if you are in better guild you can at least start doing experts but still this gear is far too low to do t1. and if you are dps situation is far easier since you can do literally nothing and still DO experts...

    And about "The stats are there for a reason, to stop people from trying to do everything without any experience" its actually also not true because of Rift store existence... you can buy whole t1 gear for credits and right after hitting 60 you CAN do whole content without even having any clue how to play your character.... welcome in modern "f2p+item shop" model....

  11. #11
    Ascendant July13th's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night Sky View Post
    I don't know what gear you talking about but in case of example tank who got 60 and is going to gear up , full gear for infinity stones(+runes) is not enough even to do experts - you end up with around 39k hp in case of warrior tank - and this is not enough to do experts in pugs not mention about t1 raids...(90% of pug healers will be not skilled enough, knowing their class? to keep you up..)
    Of course if you are in better guild you can at least start doing experts but still this gear is far too low to do t1. and if you are dps situation is far easier since you can do literally nothing and still DO experts...

    And about "The stats are there for a reason, to stop people from trying to do everything without any experience" its actually also not true because of Rift store existence... you can buy whole t1 gear for credits and right after hitting 60 you CAN do whole content without even having any clue how to play your character.... welcome in modern "f2p+item shop" model....
    I dont think that infinity stones was intended to replace experts (and T1). Infinity stones are great for people that want their world progression but that is about it. I totally agree with your point about buying T1 gear though.

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