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Thread: Leveling dungeons and mentor

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple Harmil's Avatar
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    Default Leveling dungeons and mentor

    This isn't a QQ thread about leveling dungeons being too hard. I like them. But, I think dungeons were tuned poorly for SL pugs who by-and-large appear to have been miserable failures (yes, we get to feel elitist and congratulate ourselves from going from raids to 5-mans and winning, but that doesn't make for a fun game for the new players or the casual players who don't have guild groups). On the other hand, if all content is tuned for pugs, then premade guild groups are going to be bored with faceroll content.

    The solution? I think the mentoring system should come to the rescue:

    Let's say an xpac comes out and raises the level cap from X to Y. Instead of having dungeons sprinkled in the leveling spectrum between X and Y, add four tiers of dungeons:

    New level X dungeons in "pickup mode". This is the default "normal" dungeon for queuing for randoms, and no matter what level you are (as long as you're X or higher and less than Y), when you queue for these, you mentor down to level X. Gear drops and quest rewards scale to current non-mentor level automatically (e.g. at level 58 you get a 58 blue from the boss, not a 50 blue, even though you and the boss were 50; alternately this could be done by having each boss drop tokens for world merchants and a reward chest at the end similar to the daily random chest).

    The same level X dungeons in "premade mode". This is like a mini expert in which there are more mechanics, health and damage, but basically they're the same as the other level X dungeons. Gear is scaled to be slightly better than pickup mode.

    The same dungeons as above plus some new ones in "pickup mode" at level Y. These are the max-level normal dungeons.

    The same dungeons as above in "premade mode". These are the max-level experts.

    Because you automatically mentor to level X until you hit level Y, there's no need to see the same "level X+2" dungeon over and over again until you hit max level! Diversity for the players and lots of players seeing the content. Win-win!

    On the topic of mentoring: please consider scaling mentoring for dungeons differently. Right now, it looks like you're doing this:

    1) Calculate average stats for current "real" level.

    2) Calculate average stats for target "mentor" level.

    3) Subtract the delta from current stats.

    The problem with this is that as you level, your awesome relics become a liability when mentored, eventually leaving you entering (as I did) CC and finding that you're doing less damage on normal mode than you did at 50 on expert! How can you fix this? Easy! Scale the gear AND the player:

    1) Do the above steps for raw player stats (without gear contribution)

    2) The the above steps for each piece of gear, scaling it down (if it out-levels the target content) appropriately based on its own level (you don't have to reflect this in tooltips, just build the player's stats appropriately from the mentored stats). For example, if you have a level 50 relic sword from ID, it shouldn't scale at all when going into CC because that's a level 50 zone. It remains a powerful sword, even when wielded by a level 60, as it should in level 50 content! But a level 55 green with the same stats as that relic would scale down to be on-par with a level 50 green, and wouldn't do you nearly as much good!

    The side benefit of this is that people who choose to level exclusively in dungeons, and were doing end-game content prior to xpac, really don't need any new gear until they're level 60. Honestly, I think that's a nice reward for doing the content, but doesn't affect balance at max level at all!
    Harmil is:
    Mev - 60 Mage (Archon, Harbalist, Chloro) Faeblight
    Pso - 50 Rogue Faeblight
    <Ascended of Corthana>
    Gaming blog: http://ajsgaming.blogspot.com/

  2. #2
    Rift Disciple Harmil's Avatar
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    Oh, and the nice thing about this is that you don't have to throw out the old dungeons. Pre-xpac level X dungeons remain part of the "leveling dungeon rotation", though you might tune it so that the "random" part is weighted toward new dungeons, but doesn't exclude the old ones.

    This gives players a mix of familiar and new and prevents them immediately becoming bored with a handful of new dungeons.
    Harmil is:
    Mev - 60 Mage (Archon, Harbalist, Chloro) Faeblight
    Pso - 50 Rogue Faeblight
    <Ascended of Corthana>
    Gaming blog: http://ajsgaming.blogspot.com/

  3. #3
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    While a nice idea, it makes things more complicated with little benefit beyond what we would get by just making the normal dungeons easier. IMO dungeons should be something that makes you think and work together to succeed, experts are just the endgame version of this. I can understand some people want to see the content without learning anything or paying attention though, like how dungeons have been for the last year or so.

    Unfortunately mentoring is not the ultimate solution to making old content challenging again, even though you may be underscaled, you still have access to all of your level 50-60 abilities which are generally extremely overpowered at that level, even scaled down. Anything beyond what mentoring does is just artificially gimping yourself which is no fun either.

  4. #4
    Ascendant Pork Star's Avatar
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    I skipped over the mathematical parts, but I believe that your essential issue is with stat levels when mentoring. I agree that they are messed up.

    My cleric had around 3k SP at level 50, but when I mentor to 51, it has less than half that amount. It really discourages me from using the mentoring system for anything besides instant adventure.

  5. #5
    Ascendant
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    Agree with the poster above me. I pugged randoms till i hit 60 then guild experts. To be honest its not overtuned for pugs if you pay attention and dont expect to miss interrupts and not filliw mechanics.

    Yea there are a couple exceptions, but even with the occasional overtuned boss, it is still doable.

  6. #6
    Prophet of Telara Frailaq's Avatar
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    It really is pitiful when you are still wearing a pile of ID relics but because you get mentored down to 50 when entering a dungeon like Caduceus Rise the fresh 50 with crafted + blues is dealing twice your dps. It's like a kick to the 'nads and only succeeds in making me (and probably many others) decide to not queue as a mentor again until the scaling issue gets fixed.

  7. #7
    Rift Disciple Harmil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinnz View Post
    While a nice idea, it makes things more complicated
    I disagree. I think tuning n different dungeons for n different player levels AND tuning mentoring appropriately is far, far harder. Tuning all of those dungeons for ONE player level and tuning mentoring to always level everyone to that level makes much more sense.

    Hell... I'd be in favor of the max-level experts containing scaled-up versions of every dungeon in the game for exactly this reason: it's minimal development time for maximum reduction in "expert fatigue".

    with little benefit beyond what we would get by just making the normal dungeons easier.
    I think they should be easier for most, but I'd really like them to be exactly as hard as they are for good, pre-made groups. Making that so doesn't really require much extra work, since you can just back-port the expert mechanics from max-level and add a small amount of extra health. Problem solved, plus you get to preview expert mechanics while leveling (perhaps with a couple left out so that something is new at 60).

    Unfortunately mentoring is not the ultimate solution to making old content challenging again, even though you may be underscaled, you still have access to all of your level 50-60 abilities which are generally extremely overpowered at that level, even scaled down. Anything beyond what mentoring does is just artificially gimping yourself which is no fun either.
    When you're talking about levels prior to 50, you're right, but I don't think any of the 50-60 abilities are all that game breaking, and that's the only delta we're talking about, here.
    Harmil is:
    Mev - 60 Mage (Archon, Harbalist, Chloro) Faeblight
    Pso - 50 Rogue Faeblight
    <Ascended of Corthana>
    Gaming blog: http://ajsgaming.blogspot.com/

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