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Thread: A slight amendment to future raid gear

  1. #1
    General of Telara
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    Default A slight amendment to future raid gear

    In another post where the debate about whether mark rewards being given in Dungeons was good or bad (the concensus being it's good!) I mentioned that while it was good, the issue people had with it seemed to be the fact that it took away from the reward of raiding - the gear bought from marks meant that basically a lot of gear from raids becomes trash near immediately.

    This is a problem I agree with - even my alt has no use for alot of high end raid gear because he has got stuff via dungeon runs. But the flaw is not with the marks being given from dungeons but instead the current way loot is designed.

    As it stands the bought gear is 95% of the time superior than raid boss drops, add in the fact that only bought gear works with the synergy crystal and pretty much all actual armour drops from raids are redundant which is a shame because it takes away the thrill of gear drops.

    As a result, can we look at adjusting gear to the following:

    Bought gear inferior to raid dropped items
    Epic version of bought gear superior to raid dropped items
    Raid dropped items count towards synergy crystal bonus

    The differences don't have to be huge, just slight adjustments so that dropped gear is at least a LITTLE better than what's already bought. That way bought gear is good to have until you manage to get a dropped item, the difference in quality is not so much that you DESPERATELY need the raid dropped item instead, but it is a nice little bonus to get it. Meanwhile the ability to upgrade bought items to that of something superior to dropped gear makes the bought stuff still relevant and useful.

    I just think this helps keep raid loot more relevant even for people who have dungeon farmed a lot before getting into a raid, it means raiding is an upgrade path beyond just the right side of your gear and epics and makes raids a lot more satisfying to farm.

    As it currently stands I think Marks are great because it allows casual raiders and non raiders and indeed raiders continue progressing their gear but it is having a slight detrimental effect on raids due to armour being trashed sometimes even on the first raid run there with chars. I think this change would just be a nice improvement to the current system

  2. #2
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    I somewhat agree, but if you look at some of the threads in the Dungeons & Raids section, you can see there is already problems with relying on RNG for loot drops. The purpose of the vendor gear is to mitigate that and provide an alternate, guaranteed way to gear up such as we have for PvP. As an exception to that, weapons and accessories can only be obtained through drops (or now, the PvP weapons...)

    I only see a lot of dropped gear go to waste when everyone in the raid is completely geared for that tier anyway, I don't really see a benefit to making them slightly better.
    Last edited by TheGrinnz; 08-24-2012 at 12:03 PM.

  3. #3
    Ascendant Wolfetx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asteldian View Post
    In another post where the debate about whether mark rewards being given in Dungeons was good or bad (the concensus being it's good!) I mentioned that while it was good, the issue people had with it seemed to be the fact that it took away from the reward of raiding - the gear bought from marks meant that basically a lot of gear from raids becomes trash near immediately.

    This is a problem I agree with - even my alt has no use for alot of high end raid gear because he has got stuff via dungeon runs. But the flaw is not with the marks being given from dungeons but instead the current way loot is designed.

    As it stands the bought gear is 95% of the time superior than raid boss drops, add in the fact that only bought gear works with the synergy crystal and pretty much all actual armour drops from raids are redundant which is a shame because it takes away the thrill of gear drops.

    As a result, can we look at adjusting gear to the following:

    Bought gear inferior to raid dropped items
    Epic version of bought gear superior to raid dropped items
    Raid dropped items count towards synergy crystal bonus

    The differences don't have to be huge, just slight adjustments so that dropped gear is at least a LITTLE better than what's already bought. That way bought gear is good to have until you manage to get a dropped item, the difference in quality is not so much that you DESPERATELY need the raid dropped item instead, but it is a nice little bonus to get it. Meanwhile the ability to upgrade bought items to that of something superior to dropped gear makes the bought stuff still relevant and useful.

    I just think this helps keep raid loot more relevant even for people who have dungeon farmed a lot before getting into a raid, it means raiding is an upgrade path beyond just the right side of your gear and epics and makes raids a lot more satisfying to farm.

    As it currently stands I think Marks are great because it allows casual raiders and non raiders and indeed raiders continue progressing their gear but it is having a slight detrimental effect on raids due to armour being trashed sometimes even on the first raid run there with chars. I think this change would just be a nice improvement to the current system
    Your leaving out relic which can not be bought and only comes from boss drops.
    If relic gear didnt exist i might agree with you but since it does exist your argument is not valid. As it stands right now you can NOT get better bought gear than what the bosses drop (relic token).

  4. #4
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    Here's my stance on the raid drops from bosses, true there is the relic item from a boss to upgrade your epic to relic, and if anything I feel this gear should be a standard of progression, at the same time there are so many wasteful purple drops in terms of armor as the OP is trying to point out, in my opinion there should be a similar set within the dungeon/raid , maybe a bit better since it's rng, but not required for progression, more of a "look at me I got sexier gear than the vendor" for the extra effort it may take to get all the pieces for the set based on rng factors.

    My self as a tank I'd rather take option two, just from a personal stand point that I don't like the concept of random currency to trade in for BIS armor in most cases.

  5. #5
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valest View Post
    in my opinion there should be a similar set within the dungeon/raid , maybe a bit better since it's rng, but not required for progression, more of a "look at me I got sexier gear than the vendor" for the extra effort it may take to get all the pieces for the set based on rng factors.
    Either you take the viewpoint that BiS is not required for progression in which case most of this gear is irrelevant as long as you get something of the correct tier. I would argue this is the case unless you are 10 seconds over enrage on Ituziel.

    Or you take the viewpoint that BiS is "required" for progression in which case even if the drops are slightly better yes they will be "required", just as much as grinding PA is.
    Last edited by TheGrinnz; 08-24-2012 at 01:46 PM.

  6. #6
    Ascendant Wolfetx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valest View Post
    Here's my stance on the raid drops from bosses, true there is the relic item from a boss to upgrade your epic to relic, and if anything I feel this gear should be a standard of progression, at the same time there are so many wasteful purple drops in terms of armor as the OP is trying to point out, in my opinion there should be a similar set within the dungeon/raid , maybe a bit better since it's rng, but not required for progression, more of a "look at me I got sexier gear than the vendor" for the extra effort it may take to get all the pieces for the set based on rng factors.

    My self as a tank I'd rather take option two, just from a personal stand point that I don't like the concept of random currency to trade in for BIS armor in most cases.
    The way i see those items is they are there for flavor and extra customization of stats. You only need 5 set pieces for the full set bonus, the non set items that drop from bosses allow you to tweak your stats while still keeping your set bonus.
    Calling them worthless just is not true. Lets not forget also that atm weapons,rings, trinkets,necks, wands and so on can not be bought and only come from kills in the zone.

    So out of 11 slots that can be filled only 5 can be filled with bought items and those bought items are not bis for the zone.

  7. #7
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    At the moment most of the 7 pieces of armour bought are superior to almost all raid drops.

    I am not forgetting about the fact the relic upgrade is from raid only, and it's great that you get that, but that doesn't change the fact that all the armour dropping from bosses is worthless in 90% of the cases and so even on your first few visits to a raid zone half of the loot is already trash.

    The way I would like it to be is: the bought gear is and top quality gear that by having it enables you to be raid ready for the current raid. Boss drops are slightly better (only needs to be a couple of stats here and there better) so that having a load of ID bought gear does not leave the ID armour drops obsolete before you even go there - the bought stuff is good enough, but the dropped stuff is a little more, it won't make or break a char by not having the dropped stuff because going straight from bought to relic (which remains the best) is perfectly viable exactly as it is now, but having dropped stuff as an intermediate is just a nice small upgrade on the way.

    Currently that are a couple items that drop which are superior to bought items, and as far as I am aware no one has an issue with this and no one feels that by not having such an item you are not good enough for the raid content, all I am suggesting is that rather than only a few items being like this, all of them should be.

    Maybe I am just wierd, but going to HK to gear up new members who are entering for the first time only to find half the drops are getting trashed because they are no use to them is a sad state to be in.

    Currently the only purpose of dropped armour is as a placeholder until an item is bought, but with all the marks from dungeons and then from raids it doesn't take long to get the armour so the dropped stuff is pointless, I would like to see it more like the bought gear is a placeholder until you are lucky enough to get a raid drop, then what you bought is not wasted because eventually you upgrade it to relic. As I said, it works in the minority of cases now with some pieces (e.g. Deaths Advance boots from HK are superior to HK bought boots but inferior to relic bought boots) and seems people are happy with that, so I think it should work with all. Allowing the Synergy crystal to work with the relevant tiered gear would also help with making raid drops useful.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asteldian View Post

    Maybe I am just wierd, but going to HK to gear up new members who are entering for the first time only to find half the drops are getting trashed because they are no use to them is a sad state to be in.
    If on the first run through you are trashing half the drops it is because those people waited until they overgeared the content before attempting it. I don't see how their choice means the system should be changed.

    you also have the relic pieces that can only be obtained through doing the raids so that is the raiders reward right there, not to mention achievements, titles and mounts that you can only get by doing the raids

    The only thing I agree with is that synergy crystals should work with all pieces from a particular tier, they work with the planar gear as well so I don't know why raid drops get left out.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glamour View Post
    If on the first run through you are trashing half the drops it is because those people waited until they overgeared the content before attempting it. I don't see how their choice means the system should be changed.

    you also have the relic pieces that can only be obtained through doing the raids so that is the raiders reward right there, not to mention achievements, titles and mounts that you can only get by doing the raids

    The only thing I agree with is that synergy crystals should work with all pieces from a particular tier, they work with the planar gear as well so I don't know why raid drops get left out.
    Which is not an uncommon state. Someone joins the Guild after having been around awhile and has HK gear already from dungeon runs.
    As it currently stands, with few exceptions the bought stuff is BiS prior to relic and people can get that without ever raiding. My issue is not with getting great gear outside of raids, I am happy with that, but my problem is that the gear makes so much of raid gear obsolete - in some cases dropped gear is vastly inferior to bought stuff not just slightly and this certainly needs to adjust (HK you have those armour pieces that only give 1 or your main stats). I just think it takes some of the 'loot thrill' out of raiding, in the rare cases where a dropped item is better its a big relief and exciting that someone can actually use the item.

    With the current state, there seems to be too many armour drops from bosses, armour which is often redundant either immediately or very quickly.

    But if people disagree and feel bought armour should be better then fair enough, we can just carry on making money for the Guild Bank from all the bosses, but I would at least like to see synergy crystal bonuses work if nothng else changes

  10. #10
    Sword of Telara Atropus's Avatar
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    Personally, I'd like to see Synergy Crystal effects as they are currently become part of the individual soul trees themselves, the base stats on purchased gear to be lowered slightly, and new Synergy Crystal effects increase base stats for X number of pieces equiped. This would make gearing decisions more meaningful since dropped gear would be stronger than purchased gear at the baseline, so you would be encouraged to phase from bought to dropped, and then back to the bought once you acquired a few Relic upgrades. Overall, I think it would make itemization easier on the devs, gearing choices more intuitive and based on the amount of gear you have, and progression feel more natural.
    Last edited by Atropus; 08-25-2012 at 02:03 AM.

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