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Thread: Separation of the Learners From the Big Guns

  1. #1
    Shadowlander
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    Default Separation of the Learners From the Big Guns

    It took me close to a month and a half grinding in dungeons to get one ID piece. Sure it would be fine with me if I could only get HK marks. I suggested 4 T1 marks, 3 T2s, and 1 or none of T3s. Here is why, it makes no sense that we can get 2 of T2 or T3 marks upon completion of the dungeon. What do you think players will go for? Secondly, it is really frustrating for new players to get carried or pushed through these experts by raiders just wanting their marks. More times than not the raiders are doing 2k to 3 k damage in there! Then they criticize a new tank or healer because they pulled threat and died. There needs to be more masters with marks for these people. They need to be put in a place appropriate to their gear and rewarded for their efforts in harder instances. Let the new players or alts of people be rewarded appropriately for their efforts. When Storm Legion finally launches I hope there are more master modes and the loot is better with perhaps it being apart of LFG with shiny new marks for Jemmi to earn
    Last edited by AkaKaiwyn; 08-23-2012 at 10:13 AM.

  2. #2
    Plane Touched
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    I'm not sure exactly what your point is here. Are you advocating further separation of people you call 'learners' from 'big guns?'

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    Ascendant
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    Problem is there aren't enough "learners" as you call them. So then they would be back here complaining about long queue times.

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    Ascendant nemecis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluelightt View Post
    Problem is there aren't enough "learners" as you call them. So then they would be back here complaining about long queue times.
    ^ this

    Also, few are eager to grind Experts for months, then T1, then T2 to eventually reach T3 raiding. Few recruiting guilds are patient enough to wait for players to gear up via that progression path either.

    Point is, without these marks and the other incentives, queue times would be much longer, and the ability of players to "catch up" would be greatly reduced.

    This also has implications for alts, and players who re-roll.

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    Ascendant Morvick's Avatar
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    This is really something that falls to the community, I think. There's no need for an artificial system which separates newbies from veterans, when instead the Veterans could aproach the Experts with a more patient mindset.

    Add to that the increase in queue times, plus the veterans may have great advice to give new players -- tips on more effective builds (if that's what the "learner" is after) or general advice on better tactics. Things that the learner would need in a Raid, information which would be robbed if all we had were the people with one eye leading the blind. I don't advocate moving in that direction.

    The other element of your post is asking for more things that well-geared players can engage in, and that's totally reasonable. I'd hope to see Master Modes of many if not all of the dungeons in Storm Legion, as a start.

    Even through all that, the incentive to have veterans mingle with newbies should remain. It's very healthy for a growing and developing playerbase of mixed experiences and different skill levels.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zinbik View Post
    I also made other enhancements to certain aspects of the game for various reasons.

  6. #6
    Shield of Telara
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    Hmmm I guess there can be two different levels of LFG as the OP suggested.
    LFG1 gives 6 PoA, 4 MoA, or 3 GMoA.
    LFG2 gives 2 GMoA, 2 IMoA, or PA exp crystal, with better plat reward.
    Hopefully raiders go for LFG2 while newbies and non-raiders go for LFG1.
    This might work well... or not.

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    Ascendant nemecis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenof View Post
    Hmmm I guess there can be two different levels of LFG as the OP suggested.
    LFG1 gives 6 PoA, 4 MoA, or 3 GMoA.
    LFG2 gives 2 GMoA, 2 IMoA, or PA exp crystal, with better plat reward.
    Hopefully raiders go for LFG2 while newbies and non-raiders go for LFG1.
    This might work well... or not.
    already exists

    Experts / Normal

    Since Normals grand 250k XP, and marks (used to buy more XP or Minor Cats) they've become more popular. No "raid" marks, but there is an incentive to run them, where there wasn't before.

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    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AkaKaiwyn View Post
    It took me close to a month and a half grinding in dungeons to get one ID piece. Sure it would be fine with me if I could only get HK marks. I suggested 4 T1 marks, 3 T2s, and 1 or none of T3s. Here is why, it makes no sense that we can get 2 of T2 or T3 marks upon completion of the dungeon. What do you think players will go for?
    More like people just need to stop telling new players who aren't being carried through raids to go straight for ID marks.

  9. #9
    Shield of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by nemecis View Post
    already exists

    Experts / Normal

    Since Normals grand 250k XP, and marks (used to buy more XP or Minor Cats) they've become more popular. No "raid" marks, but there is an incentive to run them, where there wasn't before.
    What I meant was for the same dungeon of the same difficulty. (That's why I avoided the term T1 and T2.)
    Running normals will only give some ideas about expert, not the full picture.

    Additionally, rewards from Normals are not better than Expert, which was the thing I pointed by increasing GMoA reward for LFG1.

    In other words, normals are done in addition to expert, not in place of expert.
    That's a totally different issue from the point raised by the OP.
    Last edited by Tenof; 08-23-2012 at 10:57 AM.

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    Rift Master LeCreaux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morvick View Post
    This is really something that falls to the community, I think. There's no need for an artificial system which separates newbies from veterans, when instead the Veterans could aproach the Experts with a more patient mindset.
    I run experts to help my daughter gear up her first healer. My rogue is HK/ID geared as both tank and DPS, so it's not a challenge to my character in either role. I can speed run but choose not to.

    Normal players appreciate it and whisper us when we're online to see if we're running more. We have quite a list of friends picked up from running experts at a normal pace and get invites to change servers often.

    There's a much larger audience for this than some realize.

  11. #11
    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
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    A month and a half? My alt gets an ID piece every 2-3 weeks. He's at 4 pieces from mostly just dungeons.

    With 7 daily dungeons 4 mastersmodes and 2 weekly quests you can top out at 45 ID marks per week without even setting foot into ID.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

  12. #12
    Ascendant nemecis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenof View Post
    What I meant was for the same dungeon of the same difficulty. (That's why I avoided the term T1 and T2.)
    Running normals will only give some ideas about expert, not the full picture.

    Additionally, rewards from Normals are not better than Expert, which was the thing I pointed by increasing GMoA reward for LFG1.

    In other words, normals are done in addition to expert, not in place of expert.
    That's a totally different issue from the point raised by the OP.
    Then it's presumed there's a sufficient portion of the population that'd be willing to run LFG1 over LGF2. Regardless, you'd have some point in time where LFG2 IS used by the overwhelming majority (I suggest that's the case already, but allow that it may not be), and we're back to square 1, with long que times for those who most need the gear / experience.

    The reason for the present system is to provide incentives for players who no longer need to run said content to do so, thus bolstering the participation numbers, and ensuring que times are bareable.

    This solution is essentially the same as when we had T1 and T2, functionally perhaps not since the difference was which instances you ran, but essentailly the same. At some point, fewer and fewer people will que for LFG1 over LFG2, just as they did T2 over T1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aerisod View Post
    I'm not sure exactly what your point is here. Are you advocating further separation of people you call 'learners' from 'big guns?'
    Well, yes! I do agree with the community manager that it is really up to us players. However, I rarely see a case where the raiders ever are patient with new people. As for people like myself, I have been through those instances many times and there isn't really a challenge anymore. So I just cross my fingers hoping to get a group of players that are not rude and impatient with others. It is a frequent occurrence that the raiders, obvious from gear and attitude, that they are not there to help others. For instance, we had 3 new DPS join us in the random. They had no idea about the fights. The tank pulled the entire room while I was trying to explain to them that first boss in Iron Tombs silences casters. He then proceeded to yell "Heal me!" and then died. After this he DCed and never came back. I then was fortunate enough to grab my husband to help us finish IT. The former tank was a raider. This is one of many unfortunate experiences for new players. There was even a time when the tank and healer vote kicked another player for having 600 DPS. While I get they wanted to hurry through, the poor person was forced to requeue and sent me a message asking "why?". I told them sorry but it only takes 3 to kick and I had no say. So, yes I think it is demoralizing to a new player to have to take the abuse of others for not being well geared and having the misfortune of being rushed through. If we lived in a world of helpful people it wouldn't be an issue. So, I ask again please remove ID marks and make more masters for the raiders to and myself to earn marks in. There will always be a long wait for DPS. It will not matter if the marks a removed or not. I almost always get a quick queue as a healer because very few people like the pressure of playing a tank or healer role.

  14. #14
    Telaran Dkknight777's Avatar
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    @Zyzyx: It is certainly possible to earn them at your rate, but not without sacrificing priorities and/or hygiene. Most adults with responsibilities who play Rift would be hard pressed to earn all that regularly, let alone post in the forums as prolifically as you do.

    @LeCreaux: It's great that you play with family, more people should. I do play Rift with my son as well from time to time. I hope you never have to deal with other overgeared Raiders kicking or being verbally abusive to your daughter, because she made a simple learning mistake or was not "keeping up" with their expectations.

    Although I don't always, I agree with the OP in this case. Progression needs to be smoothed out, further than it already has been, especially for those leveling undergeared alts. Not made easier for overgeared Raiders to farm trivialized/greyed-out content for marks. Between the patch 1.10 cross-faction merger and subscriber growth from Storm Legion, Rift would have ample population, even if queues shrank by the Raiders earning them elsewhere. That said, queue size is a non-issue and a diversion from the real topic.

    My suggestion: Raid marks, other than the lowest tier, should not be offered as a reward for any sort of Expert dungeons. Raiders have much different expectations of skill level/time/performance than a fresh L50 casual player barely meeting stat requirements to enter an Expert dungeon. It is these failed expectations and the vast differences between the two which lead to the majority of bad experiences with the LFG dungeon finder. I have witnessed many times both Casuals and Raiders get extremely upset at one another and turn an otherwise fun and exciting experience into an agonizingly hair-tearing, teeth-pulling, not fun experience.

    All of us should be able to gear up(progress) for the next tier above the content we are running, not 2-3 tiers above it. If Trion wants a time sink for Raiders to earn additional marks, then it needs to be from content that is actually challenging to them at their current tier of gear. Adding more Raid Rifts, Mastermodes for all the existing dungeons and dailies for both would be one way of accomplishing this. It would get Raiders out of the Expert dungeons, earning marks and running content that was actually challenging once again. More importantly, it would give Casuals who are still progressing to Raiding some peace of mind without expecting them to flawlessly execute Rapid Assault on their very first visit to Expert IT.
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  15. #15
    Ascendant nemecis's Avatar
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    So based on a few negative experiences while running Experts, you've deemed the entire system should be overhauled to cator to "learners"?

    I could cite many positive experiences, both on alts while gearing under the current conditions, and on my main, a raider, who overgears and rushes all of this content.

    System isn't flawed just because you've had the misfortune of being grouped with tools. Reduce your chances by forming a group a head of time, guild or friend only runs are a great way. Feel the need to play teacher while you're at it? Find a new 50 on your server and show them the ropes with your Captain Planet team of do-gooders.

    You haven't made a case for why the entire rewards system should be changed, you've made a case for why the system sometimes leads to runs that aren't enjoyable.

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