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Thread: BoP Dungeon Loot Abuse

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    Telaran Kelinniane's Avatar
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    Default BoP Dungeon Loot Abuse

    A guild member here today had the new rogue bow "ninja'd" in a xDD run. He related to us that:

    "So now all 4 of them are need rolling on the bow [a guild group from a different server]. So I was pretty mad when the mage won. I said "are you kidding me? Why did you need that?" he said "Well we wanted to make sure our rogue got it.""

    Back in Wrath, WoW had it where only classes that could use something could need on it, all others had to greed (the Need button was grey'd out/disabled).

    Is it possible that something like that could be implemented to stop abuses such as this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelinniane View Post
    A guild member here today had the new rogue bow "ninja'd" in a xDD run. He related to us that:

    "So now all 4 of them are need rolling on the bow [a guild group from a different server]. So I was pretty mad when the mage won. I said "are you kidding me? Why did you need that?" he said "Well we wanted to make sure our rogue got it.""

    Back in Wrath, WoW had it where only classes that could use something could need on it, all others had to greed (the Need button was grey'd out/disabled).

    Is it possible that something like that could be implemented to stop abuses such as this?
    At the very least it would probably be easier to do here than in Warcraft where you had issues with DPS shamans rolling on shields needed by Holy paladins or shamans not being able to roll Need on cloth/leather gear that is clearly an upgrade, armor class aside, to what they're currently using.

    In fact the only real issue I'd forsee would be with Justicar tanks and leather armor or strength/stamina accessories.

    Aside from that I rather hope you reported them for mechanics abuse.

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    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marikhen View Post
    At the very least it would probably be easier to do here than in Warcraft where you had issues with DPS shamans rolling on shields needed by Holy paladins or shamans not being able to roll Need on cloth/leather gear that is clearly an upgrade, armor class aside, to what they're currently using.

    In fact the only real issue I'd forsee would be with Justicar tanks and leather armor or strength/stamina accessories.

    Aside from that I rather hope you reported them for mechanics abuse.
    My friend and I have another issue...tank spec guys keep needing on DPS gear in dungeons...see I feel that if you queue as DPS you should only roll on DPS drops unless you ask and the others say it is cool. And when tanks roll need on DPS gear...with out asking if the DPS needs it is uncool as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaratos View Post
    My friend and I have another issue...tank spec guys keep needing on DPS gear in dungeons...see I feel that if you queue as DPS you should only roll on DPS drops unless you ask and the others say it is cool. And when tanks roll need on DPS gear...with out asking if the DPS needs it is uncool as well.
    So if the rogue tank had ticked tank, support, and DPS so he can queue faster and gets chosen as the tank he can no longer roll on DPS gear?
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    Ascendant July13th's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelinniane View Post
    A guild member here today had the new rogue bow "ninja'd" in a xDD run. He related to us that:

    "So now all 4 of them are need rolling on the bow [a guild group from a different server]. So I was pretty mad when the mage won. I said "are you kidding me? Why did you need that?" he said "Well we wanted to make sure our rogue got it.""

    Back in Wrath, WoW had it where only classes that could use something could need on it, all others had to greed (the Need button was grey'd out/disabled).

    Is it possible that something like that could be implemented to stop abuses such as this?
    I personally believe that all lfg loot (besides the tradeable in-game currency plat,gold,silver) should reward tokens to exchange for items or reward all players with random loot bag (SWTOR will have similar system)

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    Soulwalker Einzelhaft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaratos View Post
    My friend and I have another issue...tank spec guys keep needing on DPS gear in dungeons...see I feel that if you queue as DPS you should only roll on DPS drops unless you ask and the others say it is cool. And when tanks roll need on DPS gear...with out asking if the DPS needs it is uncool as well.
    This argument just doesn't hold any water. EVERYone who NEEDS an item should be able to need on it, whether it's for the spec the LFG tool just randomly assigned them, or not. Warriors have it the worst, because often the only way to even get a queue to pop is for them to queue as tank, at which point certain greedy DPS players assume tanking somehow makes them ineligible to roll on DPS gear.

    There is a fallacy amongst today's bratty MMO population that everyone has a "main" spec, or whatever. I really wish I knew where this stupid idea came from. I only play specs I enjoy playing, and I play them all equally. None of them are "main." None of them are "alts." None of them are in any way lesser than the others. Terms such as "main" and "alt" have been created to justify the greedy outside rules that people would impose on top of these games. (IE: "You got stuck tanking here, so you can't have that DPS item!")

    A similar complaint I see a lot is "The DPS warrior needed on the leather Rogue DPS gear!" This, too, is a bull$hit response. Look at that piece of leather. The "callings" on it will clearly list Warrior right alongside Rogue. Rogues have no more claim to it than do Warriors, but you should hear them cry if a Warrior gets a well-deserved DPS upgrade instead of the Rogue landing it. Maybe the correct response to this problem is for Trion to have more DPS-related plate gear, or to remove "Warrior" from the usable classes on leather. Or maybe it's for people to grow up a bit. I'm not sure.

    For the record, I don't have a DPS warrior spec; I don't have a vested interest in this argument. I just can't stand seeing ******ry. What I see is people trying to impose their own restrictions onto the game because these restrictions benefit their own greed. Shut up, roll need if your toon needs the item (and ONLY if your toon needs the item), and if you don't get it, run the dungeon some more.
    But you know evil is an exact science, being carefully, correctly wrong...

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    Soulwalker Einzelhaft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by July13th View Post
    I personally believe that all lfg loot (besides the tradeable in-game currency plat,gold,silver) should reward tokens to exchange for items or reward all players with random loot bag (SWTOR will have similar system)
    Unfortunately, I have to somewhat agree with this idea. While it kills the thrill of a gear upgrade dropping, it does eliminate ******y self-entitled rants when someone gets a piece of gear someone else thinks that they deserve more.
    But you know evil is an exact science, being carefully, correctly wrong...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Einzelhaft View Post
    Unfortunately, I have to somewhat agree with this idea. While it kills the thrill of a gear upgrade dropping, it does eliminate ******y self-entitled rants when someone gets a piece of gear someone else thinks that they deserve more.
    Run with your guild. Hell usually when a mage piece drops our mages all argue about who else should get it and not them.
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    Ascendant Romiz's Avatar
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    This fix is make so you can on get a BOP if for you calling. That way other callings can not get them.
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    Rift Disciple Legerity's Avatar
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    I agreed with most of your points up until...

    Quote Originally Posted by Einzelhaft View Post
    A similar complaint I see a lot is "The DPS warrior needed on the leather Rogue DPS gear!" This, too, is a bull$hit response. Look at that piece of leather. The "callings" on it will clearly list Warrior right alongside Rogue. Rogues have no more claim to it than do Warriors, but you should hear them cry if a Warrior gets a well-deserved DPS upgrade instead of the Rogue landing it. Maybe the correct response to this problem is for Trion to have more DPS-related plate gear, or to remove "Warrior" from the usable classes on leather. Or maybe it's for people to grow up a bit. I'm not sure.
    The issue is, Rogues can only viably wear leather and are restricted to dual wielding, whereas Warriors can wear plate, leather, use a two-hander, or dual weapons. Just because a Warrior DPS can roll on all the gear that a Rogue DPS could, doesn't mean they should. Warriors have alternate options. Rogues do not.

    Don't take this as me saying "All DPS Warriors should be plate-wearing two-handers." I just think that the Rogue's roll should have priority over the Warrior's if it is an upgrade for both of them.

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    Ascendant July13th's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legerity View Post
    The issue is, Rogues can only viably wear leather and are restricted to dual wielding, whereas Warriors can wear plate, leather, use a two-hander, or dual weapons. Just because a Warrior DPS can roll on all the gear that a Rogue DPS could, doesn't mean they should. Warriors have alternate options. Rogues do not.

    Don't take this as me saying "All DPS Warriors should be plate-wearing two-handers." I just think that the Rogue's roll should have priority over the Warrior's if it is an upgrade for both of them.
    An Instance's Loot table should be purchaseable by their factions quartermaster. A lfg instance boss should reward each player a random loot bag (similar to swtor) and remove the gear drop directly.

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    Soulwalker Einzelhaft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legerity View Post
    I agreed with most of your points up until...



    The issue is, Rogues can only viably wear leather and are restricted to dual wielding, whereas Warriors can wear plate, leather, use a two-hander, or dual weapons. Just because a Warrior DPS can roll on all the gear that a Rogue DPS could, doesn't mean they should. Warriors have alternate options. Rogues do not.

    Don't take this as me saying "All DPS Warriors should be plate-wearing two-handers." I just think that the Rogue's roll should have priority over the Warrior's if it is an upgrade for both of them.
    I don't totally disagree, here. However, try to remove the stigma of "warrior vs. rogue." Rift's whole implementation of the soul tree breaks down those barriers, and instead maybe look at it as "Melee DPS." If the best "Melee DPS" piece is leather, then even if the Rogue could wear plate he'd prefer the leather piece. Just like the Warrior does. I get the perceived imbalance, I just don't agree with the old world thinking that makes it such an issue. Each character is equally entitled to be the best they can be. Granted, I don't see a lot of (any?) Clerics vying for cloth or leather items, since Trion seems to have balanced that differently. I also note that I see a frakton more leather gear drop than plate, but that's just empirical.

    But what the argument says is "Your calling is more versatile than mine, so I should get preferential treatment if it's an item we can both use." Really?

    Aside from creating the same little narrow boxes the MMO world has gotten used to, I'm not sure what else could be done to get the crying to stop. I don't even know how often it's *really* a problem, versus how often people just want to scream about it. I fear this sort of thing is what's going to prevent any real versatility from manifesting in MMOs and turn them all into stale WoW-like trash.
    But you know evil is an exact science, being carefully, correctly wrong...

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    Soulwalker Einzelhaft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by July13th View Post
    An Instance's Loot table should be purchaseable by their factions quartermaster. A lfg instance boss should reward each player a random loot bag (similar to swtor) and remove the gear drop directly.
    I might suggest a modified version of this, wherein the mob's entire loot table is up for grabs, and everyone must roll for loot rights. The item that drops then is determined by the calling of the winner, or maybe s/he gets to loot one from a chest of options?
    But you know evil is an exact science, being carefully, correctly wrong...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaratos View Post
    My friend and I have another issue...tank spec guys keep needing on DPS gear in dungeons...see I feel that if you queue as DPS you should only roll on DPS drops unless you ask and the others say it is cool. And when tanks roll need on DPS gear...with out asking if the DPS needs it is uncool as well.
    There are two aspects to consider. The first is the defensive side of things, especially when it comes to weapons and trinkets. I don't know if you're aware of this but offensive stats translate to defensive stats at a 1:1 ratio. It's not like World of Warcraft where, as an example, 20 agility converts to 1 dodge (or used to for every tank but druid, bloody morons). In Rift 20 Dexterity converts directly to 20 Dodge just as 20 Strength converts directly to 20 Parry and Block.

    The way most defensive pieces of gear work is to double up on stats so that you see +7 Strength and +7 Parry on one item. Granted this gives you a nice boost to Parry, but due to diminishing returns a +7 Strength and +7 Dexterity item would be a better choice since you'll get a higher % chance to dodge than the +7 Parry would grant for % to Parry. Because of that a 7/7/7 Str/Dex/End item that that DPS member really wants might very well be an upgrade over that 7/7/7 Str/End/Pry piece that the warrior tank has.

    The other aspect to consider is that when it comes down to DPS armor class doesn't matter. +10 Str/Dex on 100 armor leather gear trumps +7 Str/Dex on 300 armor plate gear. If warriors had something akin to Bladed Armor for DKs in WoW which yielded AP based on armor value then it would be much easier for them to ignore leather gear as an upgrade option. Along these lines is how physical crit is based off of Dexterity. Warriors have several on-crit abilities as well (Champion and Riftblade most noticably) and Pre/Suffixes aside leather gear tends to come out with more Dexterity than comparable plate armors.

    From the defensive side of things unless Trion reduces the conversion ratio of base stats to derived defensive stats or boosts the value of defensive stats on gear (ex: 7 Strength converts to only 3.5 Parry/Block and/or 7/7/7 Str/End/Parry gear goes to 7/7/14) this will continue to be the case for defensive gear for awhile when dealing with intra-class DPS vs. tank gear issues. Once players hit 50ish and Toughness becomes a factor for tanking this will, of course, be somewhat lessened, but until then it'll be a significant factor. The offensive side of things will probably just have to stay the way it is for the forseeable future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Einzelhaft View Post
    This argument just doesn't hold any water. EVERYone who NEEDS an item should be able to need on it, whether it's for the spec the LFG tool just randomly assigned them, or not. Warriors have it the worst, because often the only way to even get a queue to pop is for them to queue as tank, at which point certain greedy DPS players assume tanking somehow makes them ineligible to roll on DPS gear.
    There are several topics in the warrior forum to get warriors the ability to queue as Support. If you haven't already you might wish to throw your support in with one of those topics. I'm partial to making Warlord a combined tank/support role just as Justicar is for clerics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Einzelhaft View Post
    There is a fallacy amongst today's bratty MMO population that everyone has a "main" spec, or whatever. I really wish I knew where this stupid idea came from. I only play specs I enjoy playing, and I play them all equally. None of them are "main." None of them are "alts." None of them are in any way lesser than the others. Terms such as "main" and "alt" have been created to justify the greedy outside rules that people would impose on top of these games. (IE: "You got stuck tanking here, so you can't have that DPS item!")
    Agreed, but I do like the terms on and off spec. Whatever role you're playing in the current instance is your on-spec. Everything else is off-spec. You have an innate right to roll Need on anything for your on-spec. You should ask before rolling Need for anything going to your off-spec.

    This of course still causes issues since there are times when rogue/warrior DPS gear makes for good tank gear for Justicars (accessories specifically, had a neck piece from level 20 to damn near 40 because int/wis gear sucked in comparison). Likewise, and especially while leveling, many pieces of DPS gear are also very good pieces for tanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legerity View Post
    The issue is, Rogues can only viably wear leather and are restricted to dual wielding, whereas Warriors can wear plate, leather, use a two-hander, or dual weapons. Just because a Warrior DPS can roll on all the gear that a Rogue DPS could, doesn't mean they should. Warriors have alternate options. Rogues do not.
    Upgrades are still upgrades. If a leather drop is a 20% upgrade over the warrior's gear but only a 5% upgrade for the rogue then it ought to go to the warrior, plain and simple. Likewise if someone's in a dungeon run as a Paragon with his only other roles being tank and/or sword/board solo specs he has just as much right to roll on one-handed Str/Dex weapons as the rogues because for them two-handed weapons are not an option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Einzelhaft View Post
    Don't take this as me saying "All DPS Warriors should be plate-wearing two-handers." I just think that the Rogue's roll should have priority over the Warrior's if it is an upgrade for both of them.
    That's perfectly fine, so long as the value of the upgrade is approximatley equal. If it's a significant upgrade to the warrior then the warrior should get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Einzelhaft View Post
    Granted, I don't see a lot of (any?) Clerics vying for cloth or leather items, since Trion seems to have balanced that differently.
    Wisdom yields more SP for clerics than intellect does. One should consider, however, that many cleric abilities restore mana based on total mana. Justicars, Shamans, and Druids specifically. For them packing more intellect than wisdom can mean more mana which, if they have only one of those aforementioned abilities, can translate to more DPS by dint of being able to spam out more high-powered abilities with less concern for mana. Heck, my cleric's healing spec. involves a heavy Justicar component. As such I favor intellect more for her than wisdom purely as a mana concern.

    I fear this sort of thing is what's going to prevent any real versatility from manifesting in MMOs and turn them all into stale WoW-like trash.[/QUOTE]

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    Ascendant July13th's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marikhen View Post
    There are two aspects to consider. The first is the defensive side of things, especially when it comes to weapons and trinkets. I don't know if you're aware of this but offensive stats translate to defensive stats at a 1:1 ratio. It's not like World of Warcraft where, as an example, 20 agility converts to 1 dodge (or used to for every tank but druid, bloody morons). In Rift 20 Dexterity converts directly to 20 Dodge just as 20 Strength converts directly to 20 Parry and Block.

    The way most defensive pieces of gear work is to double up on stats so that you see +7 Strength and +7 Parry on one item. Granted this gives you a nice boost to Parry, but due to diminishing returns a +7 Strength and +7 Dexterity item would be a better choice since you'll get a higher % chance to dodge than the +7 Parry would grant for % to Parry. Because of that a 7/7/7 Str/Dex/End item that that DPS member really wants might very well be an upgrade over that 7/7/7 Str/End/Pry piece that the warrior tank has.

    The other aspect to consider is that when it comes down to DPS armor class doesn't matter. +10 Str/Dex on 100 armor leather gear trumps +7 Str/Dex on 300 armor plate gear. If warriors had something akin to Bladed Armor for DKs in WoW which yielded AP based on armor value then it would be much easier for them to ignore leather gear as an upgrade option. Along these lines is how physical crit is based off of Dexterity. Warriors have several on-crit abilities as well (Champion and Riftblade most noticably) and Pre/Suffixes aside leather gear tends to come out with more Dexterity than comparable plate armors.

    From the defensive side of things unless Trion reduces the conversion ratio of base stats to derived defensive stats or boosts the value of defensive stats on gear (ex: 7 Strength converts to only 3.5 Parry/Block and/or 7/7/7 Str/End/Parry gear goes to 7/7/14) this will continue to be the case for defensive gear for awhile when dealing with intra-class DPS vs. tank gear issues. Once players hit 50ish and Toughness becomes a factor for tanking this will, of course, be somewhat lessened, but until then it'll be a significant factor. The offensive side of things will probably just have to stay the way it is for the forseeable future.
    and
    Quote Originally Posted by Marikhen View Post
    This of course still causes issues since there are times when rogue/warrior DPS gear makes for good tank gear for Justicars (accessories specifically, had a neck piece from level 20 to damn near 40 because int/wis gear sucked in comparison). Likewise, and especially while leveling, many pieces of DPS gear are also very good pieces for tanks.
    and
    Quote Originally Posted by Marikhen View Post
    Upgrades are still upgrades. If a leather drop is a 20% upgrade over the warrior's gear but only a 5% upgrade for the rogue then it ought to go to the warrior, plain and simple. Likewise if someone's in a dungeon run as a Paragon with his only other roles being tank and/or sword/board solo specs he has just as much right to roll on one-handed Str/Dex weapons as the rogues because for them two-handed weapons are not an option.
    and
    Quote Originally Posted by Marikhen View Post
    Wisdom yields more SP for clerics than intellect does. One should consider, however, that many cleric abilities restore mana based on total mana. Justicars, Shamans, and Druids specifically. For them packing more intellect than wisdom can mean more mana which, if they have only one of those aforementioned abilities, can translate to more DPS by dint of being able to spam out more high-powered abilities with less concern for mana. Heck, my cleric's healing spec. involves a heavy Justicar component. As such I favor intellect more for her than wisdom purely as a mana concern.
    "I personally believe that all lfg loot (besides the tradeable in-game currency plat,gold,silver) should reward tokens to exchange for items or reward all players with random loot bag (SWTOR will have similar system)" or have all Instance loot tables be purchaseable with their faction's quartermaster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marikhen View Post
    There are several topics in the warrior forum to get warriors the ability to queue as Support. If you haven't already you might wish to throw your support in with one of those topics. I'm partial to making Warlord a combined tank/support role just as Justicar is for clerics.
    /signed for warlords as support.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marikhen View Post
    I fear this sort of thing is what's going to prevent any real versatility from manifesting in MMOs and turn them all into stale WoW-like trash.
    I share this view too.

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