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Thread: Endgame improvements - for the non-raider

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Endgame improvements - for the non-raider

    So to start off, thanks Trion, for listening.

    You have restored some faith and trust, and I reckon I'll log in again this weekend after my brief 1.3 ragequit. I'm now actually looking forward to giving my Warrior and Mage a go after these changes go live.

    GG on trying stuff, and actually NOT implementing it if it clearly sucks e.g.
    - reverting Valor changes,
    - warrior buffs,
    - reverting a bit on chloro - I'll still miss you chloro/archon ,
    and yes, RESPONDING in the way you did on the forum.

    GOOD GAME. Way to go.

    Oh, and WELL DONE on the subtle but HUGE first step to healthy PvP balance, by splitting PvP and PvE skills (see pyro changes)...

    Now, from a PvE perspective I've one BIG bugbear remaining ... Don't continue making it a raiding only game please! Why limit yourself to one part of your player base in such a way? Why MUST you be in a group of 20 to enjoy an MMO's endgame? Why can't you keep cruising around with a few close friends as you have done till now?

    As a solo player or with small group of friends Rift is AWESOME while leveling. Most fun I've had in years. You Rift on the side, crafting has meaning, the class system is great as you learn and try things out.
    So much choice, variety and reward ... FUN!

    Then you hit 50. After you get the best essences/focus and gear up a bit for T2, you're literally now playing a different (boring) game!
    - Queue for T2s and/or Pvp and stand around in Meridian ... Yes, the Defiant rule, deal with it :P
    - Run the same few dungeons Ad Nauseum, don't get anything for your effort besides frustration
    - Do Pvp ... kinda fun, getting there ... nerf clerics :P, more WF's
    - The ONLY other option is to join the "20man game", and RAID. Couple of nights a week. woopdee doo.

    Hey, where'd the fun game go!!? So they say, Level an alt! Well, what do you do with 4 toons at 50 then? Join the guardian carebears? Yeah right.

    Enough QQ. How to fix this?? Some thoughts:

    1. Make 5mans more meaningful/rewarding
    • Mostly by improving 5man dungeon loot drops. Many good ideas all over the forum, this is clearly a problem ... you can do it!
    • Plaque bought weapons/trinkets?
    • Another difficulty level with purps on each boss, (yay pre 1.2 dungeons!)
    • Purple rewards for achievements? i.e. rapid assault
    • Maybe even a 'choice' of reward in the end of the dungeon instead of the one drops ... i.e. show 5 items, group votes ... who knows
    2. Give geared 50s a reason to keep doing invasions
    • Maybe tie top level crafted gear to invasion rewards? i.e. 20k planarite + sourcestones buys required ingredients?
    • Chain invasions i.e. succesful invasion 'unlocks' a more rewarding invasion ... maybe even across zones ...
    3. Rolling on the other guy's gear
    • I'd almost say this is one of the main annoyances 50+, especially while pugging. Clerics rolling cloth/intel, Warriors rolling everything ... everyone rolling trinkets/rings
    • The real solution to this requires some work but is in principle simple ... reward warriors for focusing on strength, and Clerics on wisdom.
    • Who can truly say that running a dungeon 50 times to get that one item, only to have an underperforming pug out-need you on his 2nd ever run is fun. Especially the second time it happens.
    4. End game crafting
    • Crafting pre 50 is actually quite fun, really enjoyed levelling all professions on my four toons, one of each class. When you hit 50 and 300skill? ... meh ... where's the next carrot?
    • With a LOT of work, why can't we craft T2 (or heavens forbid T3!) equivalent (or slightly worse) items? emphasis on a LOT of work e.g. 30k planarite gathered and drops from rare mobs etc.?
    5. Give us a good reason to rep grind
    • Sub 50 items at the higher tiers? seriously? besides pretty mounts, why bother???
    • Perhaps provide rare and expensive crafting mats (required for those T2s) at top rep level
    • Wardrobe items??
    6. Meaningful open-world PvP anyone? nuff said
    7. Achievements/titles/rewards for soloing/2manning nm dungeons (and other crazy things only a bored over-geared 50 would do) ??

    Go on Trion!! I believe in you! ... again :P

  2. #2
    Plane Walker
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    Default Money makes the world go round

    Daylies - daylies please after 50 and all quest xp transformed to gold. Those mounts are very expencive. Reputation dailies also needed .

  3. #3
    Telaran
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    I stopped reading after paragraph 2.

    Kissass.

  4. #4
    Shield of Telara KnirpsLyn's Avatar
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    You seem to not understand a lot about why anyone does anything they do.

    First off, the reason why end-game isn't revolving around parties of 1, 2 and 3 is because you had an entire 50 levels to do things in small groups. So, when devs get to the end of a game, they want something MASSIVE! ...and...no one in an MMO, as in, hundreds and thousands of people in gigantic groupings, want to watch devs devote time to making the equilivant of the end boss in a LAN dungeon crawler console game.

    It's an MMO because it's NOT a game perfectly balanced around a few classes, designed to be played by between 1 and 5 players throughout it's entirety. Sure, you can just play solo to 50...but you're never going to experience the social or group aspects of the game. Sure, you can just play with 5 people the whole way to 50...but you're not going to want to or get to experience the larger scale raids and WFs designed for multitudes of players.

    So, that's why the endgame is made for more people than a guy and his two friends. Because we're trying to play something on a massive (MMO) scale that we can feel has some impact with the game world and the players (MMO) in it.


    Secondly, while I sometimes feel the same way, the game does not end at 50 and become 'raid or reroll'. You can spend your time PvPing, 5-manning, exploring, achievement hunting, artifact/vanity item gathering... No big pop-up happens that says 'Congratulations! You've hit level 50. You now have access to only Meridian and raids. You may not do anything else. Have fun sitting around!'

    If you had been social (MMO) during your playtime, grouped (MMO) and started talking to people, or even just chatted in general (MMO), you might have found you and your two friends a guild of friends to raid with. Raiding is only intimidating and seeminly inaccessable when you're antisocial, bad, or just aren't an MMO type. You want the cool gameplay, but you think you should be able to solo Regulos himself, otherwise Trion must hate solo players. Then again, this is an MMORPG. Not just an RPG.

    On to the lists.

    1. Make 5mans more meaningful/rewarding

    •Mostly by improving 5man dungeon loot drops. Many good ideas all over the forum, this is clearly a problem ... you can do it!
    •Plaque bought weapons/trinkets?
    •Another difficulty level with purps on each boss, (yay pre 1.2 dungeons!)
    •Purple rewards for achievements? i.e. rapid assault
    •Maybe even a 'choice' of reward in the end of the dungeon instead of the one drops ... i.e. show 5 items, group votes ... who knows
    1. Interesting idea. 5 mans can always be improved upon.
    • Agreed.
    • Not too fond of plaque bought weapons/trinkets. Sounds like token gear. Pehaps towards crafting recipes.
    • That's basically asking for a raid. Which they have.
    • Achievements should never reward gameplay changing items/gear/ablities. It turns them from achievements or fun little extras into must-have grinds.
    • That would be griefed way too hard. If you're in a group with a bunch of people from another guild, they will surely win the vote for the item best for their friends. People would vote against whatever type of gear they didn't want someone else to get, or always vote for themselves/their friends. Random is much better, imo.

    2. A lot of people have been asking for rift/invasion drops to factor into crafting and such to get people back into them. Totally agree with that.

    3. Some Clerics roll on Int gear because it's what they need and is not given to them on Chain. Some people need a lot of crit or are rebalancing their Int to Wis ratio for best stats. One of Inq BiS items is Int heavy, as well.

    Trinkets and rings are in the same boat. Obviously a Rogue rolling on anything with Int/Wis is just a baddie, but almost every class type has multitudes of soul setups and could be needing for another soul setup, or perhaps you don't know about different things they need, such as the Cleric example you mentioned. While it's annoying for people to roll for OS, there's not much you can do about that even with a NBG rolling system.

    The Cleric principle is slightly skewed, again... I suppose you're a Mage and Clerics are winning your Int items, you mention it a lot. Anyway, you also need to take into consideration that while an item may be a Str item, it could have a ton of Dex on it, or vice versa, leading someone to make a seemingly 'wrong' roll when it still is a stat upgrade, regardless of the lower item type (plate wearers going for leather, etc).

    And again, your problem seems to be with losing rolls... You can't just make everything solo so everyone always gets all the gear they want. Another reason why this is an MMO. You need other players to do things, and when you win gear from those things, you can go on to do bigger things with other players to get more gear, so on and so fourth.


    4. Many people have suggested this. I only support one tier old, tops, epic crafting. And they should be reliant on either tier/raid/rift/invasion crafting drops.

    You should not get to skip the entire endgame and get to...the ender end game (raids) through plat. You shouldn't be able to buy every piece of gear as you hit level 50 and just start raiding. As you've said before, you see baddies in T1/2... Hand that guy raiding gear, and you're gonna see more baddies in raids, as well. At least Trion is attempting to haze out bad players, or give them ample time to get better as they grind for gear before wiping 20 players. Then again, why do you want raiding gear craftable? You've made this post pretty much about getting away from raiding.

    5. Rep grinds aren't suppose to provide BiS gear. (more) Mounts, pets, wardrobe items, crafting mats, and other vanity/side-game items sound great, though.

    6. I think they need to work on meaningful open-world rifts/invasions, first. There's a place to go to PvP to mean something (WFs), but rifts are suppose to be open-world, and should be way more buffed to be viable... If rifts, which are always in the open world, were worth more, maybe people would fight over who got claim of a rift and PvP while they were rifting and such. Bringing two (supposedly) non-viable open-world events into something that is worthwhile and rewarding.

    7. More is always better, but I've found a crapton of achievements and boredom time stuff to do. More puzzles would be awesome, though.


    Also...tone down the asskissing, it's making me nauseous. :P

  5. #5
    Ascendant Anuhart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnirpsLyn View Post
    You seem to not understand a lot about why anyone does anything they do.

    First off, the reason why end-game isn't revolving around parties of 1, 2 and 3 is because you had an entire 50 levels to do things in small groups. So, when devs get to the end of a game, they want something MASSIVE! ...and...no one in an MMO, as in, hundreds and thousands of people in gigantic groupings, want to watch devs devote time to making the equilivant of the end boss in a LAN dungeon crawler console game.
    An entire 1-50 which is over in a few hours /played, by design. You can not use that as a balance, sorry.

    It's an MMO because it's NOT a game perfectly balanced around a few classes, designed to be played by between 1 and 5 players throughout it's entirety. Sure, you can just play solo to 50...but you're never going to experience the social or group aspects of the game. Sure, you can just play with 5 people the whole way to 50...but you're not going to want to or get to experience the larger scale raids and WFs designed for multitudes of players.
    Yet the focus is on 5, 10 or 20 man instances. Where was this multitude you spoke of? Doing the dynamic content which was over so quick 1-50 when the rewards actually meant something (other than longevity) and offers nothing at 50.

    So, that's why the endgame is made for more people than a guy and his two friends. Because we're trying to play something on a massive (MMO) scale that we can feel has some impact with the game world and the players (MMO) in it.
    Again you are missing the term of MMO, a lot of players who can interact and group up in one world. If you insist on that meaning they must group up, which is not what it means, then why take a handful of people out of that very world and isolate them, call it the meaning of massive, and say anyone still in the world with 100's/1000's of people is doing it wrong?


    Secondly, while I sometimes feel the same way, the game does not end at 50 and become 'raid or reroll'. You can spend your time PvPing, 5-manning, exploring, achievement hunting, artifact/vanity item gathering... No big pop-up happens that says 'Congratulations! You've hit level 50. You now have access to only Meridian and raids. You may not do anything else. Have fun sitting around!'
    If you don't like the instance grind there is very little in the world, completing all the content you were rushed through, as a lvl 50 is a poor excuse for content, has little meaning and it doesn't last long.

    If you had been social (MMO) during your playtime, grouped (MMO) and started talking to people, or even just chatted in general (MMO), you might have found you and your two friends a guild of friends to raid with. Raiding is only intimidating and seeminly inaccessable when you're antisocial, bad, or just aren't an MMO type. You want the cool gameplay, but you think you should be able to solo Regulos himself, otherwise Trion must hate solo players. Then again, this is an MMORPG. Not just an RPG.
    You use the MMO a lot, have you ever actually looked up what it means. I don't mean what each letter stands for to you, but actually what the genre is, there are a lot of sites which will explain to you. As it is I think you are missing the meaning all together.

    Quote Originally Posted by View Post
    You obviously know nothing about Laethys, have you tried him?
    I don't log in anymore.

  6. #6
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnirpsLyn View Post
    You seem to not understand a lot about why anyone does anything they do.

    6. I think they need to work on meaningful open-world rifts/invasions, first. There's a place to go to PvP to mean something (WFs), but rifts are suppose to be open-world, and should be way more buffed to be viable... If rifts, which are always in the open world, were worth more, maybe people would fight over who got claim of a rift and PvP while they were rifting and such. Bringing two (supposedly) non-viable open-world events into something that is worthwhile and rewarding.
    I started to read through and I agreed with most but this

    Meaningful PvP Doesnt NOT mean WF's. WF's are the least meaningful slaughterfest that really has no meaning. Read various Realm v Realm topics with things like Keeps and Castles that controlling them would give a global buff to the owner of the keep accross the zones. So people that want to raid Also want the buffs and thus will fight to keep the buffs. That would be meaningful PvP

  7. #7
    Shield of Telara KnirpsLyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malagus View Post
    I started to read through and I agreed with most but this

    Meaningful PvP Doesnt NOT mean WF's. WF's are the least meaningful slaughterfest that really has no meaning. Read various Realm v Realm topics with things like Keeps and Castles that controlling them would give a global buff to the owner of the keep accross the zones. So people that want to raid Also want the buffs and thus will fight to keep the buffs. That would be meaningful PvP
    I mean it has meaning in what it is. It's PvP with objectives and rewards.

    Castle seige zones and persistant outside PvP buffs are a whole new ballgame. lol

    Which, yeah, awesome idea...but then we're led back not to world PvP, but to zone based objective buff control tug-o-war PvP...which again, awesome and fun...but not the world. It funnels all PvP into that zone and providing game-wide buffs seems...weird to me. Idk, it feels like it would be monopolizing...

    That's why I mentioned rift control (actually, maybe that was a different thread, but I have mentioned that somewhere...maybe it was this thread...whatever.). It fits with the theme of the game, can be in every single zone, promotes random world PvP in more than one zone, and if they upped the rewards from rifts themselves, or offered rift faction close rewards (for instance, Defiant closes most of the rifts in this zone, they get a 5% buff to attacks, or more loot from closing rifts, or can attain items to help thwart invasions more easily/buff wardstones or something)...can't be anything too game imbalancing because then it would be horrible on lopsided faction populated servers...

    It just feels like more people would get to participate if it was like that. I mean, maybe they could put a restriction on how much higher you were allowed to be to properly contribute, so 50s wouldn't constantly camp lower level zones, but it would get more level appropriate people to participate in not only PvP, but rifts in their respective zones.
    Last edited by KnirpsLyn; 06-21-2011 at 08:31 AM.

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