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Thread: Cross realm dungeons - hear me out.

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Cross realm dungeons - hear me out.

    Hello. I have been playing Warcraft for years now, and a number of other MMO's. The one thing that was always ultimately frustrating was the fact that getting a dungeon group always took an obscene amount of time. Even when in a good guild not everyone can be active to run things.

    With that being said I'll get down to my main point. The thing that really made the change was WoW adding in cross-realm dungeons. Like they did for PvP. Because if you weren't on a PvP server chances are que times would take forever. Blizzard never took into account the amount of people on PVP servers that liked to PVE too.

    Now you may be asking yourself..why is she bringing up blizzard? Because I feel Trion should learn from Blizzards mistake. I play on a PVP server. I've leveled about every class minus Cleric to 30 almost. I've been a tank, a healer, a dps, and a support. And always the que times on my server have been absolutely horrid. I've been in a group with four people only needing a DPS and no que. I'm unsure of the que times on a PVE server but I can assume they are at least a little better than the ones on a PVP server. Which cannot be helped. Most people on PVP servers love pvp. And our que times are almost always instant. But so should almost everyone elses. Why? Because it's cross realm.

    I was told in trade that Trions reasoning for not doing this is because they want people on a realm to be close. And I understand that and it has a good reason if that is indeed true. But the problem is you will be making the game harder to play for everyone if you don't change things. Waiting over an hour to play a game is really..silly. While changing the dungeons to cross-shard I understand won't make everything instant. It will increase the speed it takes to find a group.

    TL;DR version:

    PVP servers have a rougher time finding groups for dungeons. Despite being PVP servers some people like doing both. PVE and PVP. And it makes it harder to do PVE if it is not cross-shard like PVP is.

    Please Trion, hear me out (and undoubtly the many people who feel the same way.)


    Edit:: Sorry, it keeps slipping my mind it's called a shard here not server. Can't edit the title or I would.
    Last edited by Sarah belmont; 06-16-2011 at 12:02 PM. Reason: Tried to change the title.

  2. #2
    Sez
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    Welcome to the forums Sarah. Have you heard of our handy-dandy Search feature?

    If not, you may want to give it a whirl before you post something that "sounds" original, but is really recycled refuse that has been spouted, rebuked, spouted again, and ultimately disgarded as the refuse that it is.

    Again, thank you for your time.


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  3. #3
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sez View Post
    Welcome to the forums Sarah. Have you heard of our handy-dandy Search feature?

    If not, you may want to give it a whirl before you post something that "sounds" original, but is really recycled refuse that has been spouted, rebuked, spouted again, and ultimately disgarded as the refuse that it is.

    Again, thank you for your time.


    Thank you.

    As good a feature as the search engine is (I know there had to be multiple threads on the issue already.) I felt it would help if more people voices their support with an idea. And not one to necro threads because most of the time it is against forum rules I felt like posting my own thread. Showing yet another people voicing support for this change.

    If enough people get together despite having the same argument maybe they will change it just because of popular demand?

  4. #4
    Shield of Telara KnirpsLyn's Avatar
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    Copy and paste of the same cross-shard LFD reply to other threads.

    Me, my entire guild, and everyone I've spoken to save a few people have said they do NOT want cross-shard LFD.

    If you've ever been into WF, you see the type of things you will run into cross-shard. Needing on everything, no coordination, no typing except to bash, no requing together, no nothing.

    When you make cross-shard LFD, you create an atmosphere that says, 'These people are even more of strangers than the strangers on your server, why talk to them? Why be nice? Why care?'

    People have this false idea that if you put more people into the pool of people to choose from, you suddenly create more healers, tanks, or support. You don't. In all MMOs, tanks/healers/support are harder to find, and creating a larger pool of DPS does nothing to help the problem.

    Another part of this is that raiding in this game is...well...an appropriate difficulty. Making friends and having a large pool of same-shard friends/connections is a really good thing. By becoming friends with people, even people from other guilds, you give yourself a better chance at sucessful raiding and shard progression. When you make it incredibly hard to randomly connect with players in situations you can actually gauge and understand their playstyle and skill, you end up slowly dumbing down you game, slowly creating a (excuse the pun) rift between players and community...

    Cross-shard LFD is a bad idea because a lot of us know what it does to a game. Plenty of games lasted upwards of 10 years with no cross realm/server/shard/whatever with an incredible community and everyone you talk to from those games will happily remember the community and the friendships they made doing random instances/bosses/etc together with people on the same realm...and in that one game we don't like to mention, all you ever hear is all the bad things cross-server LFD brought.

    Bottom line, cross-shard will not make queues faster on the scale people want it to, and all it will do is start the game down a path of dumbing down and catering to morons. Not casuals, morons.
    EDIT: Also, my PvP server has faster and more queue pops than my PvE server.
    Last edited by KnirpsLyn; 06-16-2011 at 01:00 PM.

  5. #5
    Plane Touched OoieGooie's Avatar
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    Dont forget about late night players. Im in Australia. Server time for me is 11pm to 4am. Now try and get a group for anything...

    But as said, this has been asked for. Prob is a knightmare to do too for the tech guys.

    Server: Now at Laethys (Was: Estrael)
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  6. #6
    Shield of Telara KnirpsLyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OoieGooie View Post
    Dont forget about late night players. Im in Australia. Server time for me is 11pm to 4am. Now try and get a group for anything...

    But as said, this has been asked for. Prob is a knightmare to do too for the tech guys.
    You might be better off asking for Oceanic servers. But expect poor treatment and bad server stability.

    A simple Google search will land you at ausMMO and similar sites that reveal 'unofficial' Aussie servers for multiple MMOs, or where Aussie communities/late night NA players are at.

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    Soulwalker
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    I've been in the que as a tank and a dps, and my boyfriend has been in as a healer a dps and a support. We just simply don't have enough people on this server to do a dungeon at some level ranges. IT's stupid.

    We have been in the que for close to 3 hours. If the que was simply missing a class we'd have the roles filled for them. We need more people into PVE on the server but since it's PVP everyone just wants to PVE. Our trade channel is filled with P sellers and very few LF raids/dungeons.

    Why continue to let people suffer. Is that what this free shard transferring is all about? Making people move from their friends just so they can enjoy the game?

  8. #8
    Shield of Telara KnirpsLyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah belmont View Post
    I've been in the que as a tank and a dps, and my boyfriend has been in as a healer a dps and a support. We just simply don't have enough people on this server to do a dungeon at some level ranges. IT's stupid.

    We have been in the que for close to 3 hours. If the que was simply missing a class we'd have the roles filled for them. We need more people into PVE on the server but since it's PVP everyone just wants to PVE. Our trade channel is filled with P sellers and very few LF raids/dungeons.

    Why continue to let people suffer. Is that what this free shard transferring is all about? Making people move from their friends just so they can enjoy the game?
    What are you talking about? If people had friends, they wouldn't worry as much about randoms because they'd have half the slots filled in, or a runner.

    The shard transfers are for people to reconnect and merge together to create a better or more active community, or even, for high end groups to move to low end servers to dominate. If any of you people were smart, you'd set up topics on the main forum and coordinate a server merge. Let everyone on server x know that server y is coming on over to try and bolster the population of both realms. That way, sever x doesn't all xfer off and you can attempt to fix it.

    But, that's all too much trouble, to just create your own community. So let's ruin everyone else's.

  9. #9
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnirpsLyn View Post
    What are you talking about? If people had friends, they wouldn't worry as much about randoms because they'd have half the slots filled in, or a runner.

    The shard transfers are for people to reconnect and merge together to create a better or more active community, or even, for high end groups to move to low end servers to dominate. If any of you people were smart, you'd set up topics on the main forum and coordinate a server merge. Let everyone on server x know that server y is coming on over to try and bolster the population of both realms. That way, sever x doesn't all xfer off and you can attempt to fix it.

    But, that's all too much trouble, to just create your own community. So let's ruin everyone else's.
    Let me spell this out for you since you seem to be wanting to act rude to me for no reason. I have been perfectly calm and rational not at all trying to offend anyone and trying to have a nice discussion. So I'll spell it out for you.

    We have friends. We do run dungeons. We just cannot run them as often as we like because everyone has DIFFERENT SCHEDULES. Something you can't or don't want to understand. We are in a small guild with people we are friends with. When we are all on we try and run stuff. But not being able to run with them means we need people in the mean time. And waiting 3-4 hours for a pop is stupidly long.
    Do you understand now? People have different time zones. Different times they can be on. Work, school, etc. But I can assume (If I am wrong I apologize. But in the likely case I am not. feel free to try and lie your way out.) you are jobless and not going to school. So you have most likely all the free time in the world which is why you cannot be empathetic to anothers problem.

    Next.

    The shard merge is for people to reconnect and allow people to switch over to dominate? Why I have no doubt some guilds may transfer to take advantage of an opposing factions lower population to cause havoc and grief to them - To reconnect? That is asking other people to change their servers- to destroy their own communities for the sake of another. Sure another may take that persons place but will they join that old persons guild? I don't think so. Why I think these free transfers are an easy fix they in no way shape or form help the community. A lot of people will be using it and abusing it. And destroying a lot of communities. A lot of guilds will crumble to this as will servers. So while some people may reconnect and play together again because of a bad server roll those numbers will be few. I assure you of this much at least.

    As for the "if you people were smart." comment. Amassing many guilds, people on different servers to come together on one shard is about the hardest thing anyone could possibly do. Imagine a complete stranger going to your shard and asking your guild to come join a bunch of others that are merging onto a server to create a healthy and new economy. Think about what you are honestly asking people to do. Do you not think some people have friends that would be unwilling to go? Due to other friends not in the guild or they just like the server? That may work once. IF that. But not enough to make an actual difference. I think you need to start thinking things through a little better. It's absurd to ask someone to do that much. Or for people to even listen.

    No. The simpler solution that would not destroy some shards would be to simply allow cross shard dungeons. If you honestly think not one shard will be left broken and destroyed by the lack of people you are fooling yourself. PVP is cross shard. It did not hurt anyones being close. In fact my guild does pvp often too. But the ques are instant. If they weren't cross shard who knows how long they'd be.

    If you ask me, and you DID by responding in such a manner. You need to think of cause and the effect afterwards.

    It's for the good of the commmunity. Just because you want to move a mountain instead of paving through it does not mean more effort is good. Think about the shards those guild leaves. Some can't leave. Some won't leave. Some won't know where to go too because of bad communication or their own stupidity. They get left behind and get frustrated. Who knows what would happen. Even if everyone did move that would leave a pretty dammed useless shard.

    Think before you speak.

    TL;DR
    Fail troll is fail.
    Last edited by Sarah belmont; 06-16-2011 at 11:36 PM.

  10. #10
    Plane Touched OoieGooie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnirpsLyn View Post
    You might be better off asking for Oceanic servers. But expect poor treatment and bad server stability.

    A simple Google search will land you at ausMMO and similar sites that reveal 'unofficial' Aussie servers for multiple MMOs, or where Aussie communities/late night NA players are at.
    those servers are full

    Server: Now at Laethys (Was: Estrael)
    Toon: FrozenBlood
    Class: warrior - Raid Tank - (G)
    Guild: --

  11. #11
    Shield of Telara KnirpsLyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OoieGooie View Post
    those servers are full
    Maybe you should make a post over there requesting all Aussies to head to a certain server so you can be your own server? I assume they all just went to a high-pop server to get more players around because they were expecting no Aussies? I'm being serious, cause of the transfers coming up. I mean, yeah, if there are servers, plural, of Aussies yous should start a petition for a few of yer own region servers/client, but in the meantime...might as well make lemonade with those lemons.

    -----WARNING! OPINIONS AND TEXT AHEAD! I'm using a forum like a forum! You've been warned!------
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah belmont View Post
    Let me spell this out for you since you seem to be wanting to act rude to me for no reason. I have been perfectly calm and rational not at all trying to offend anyone and trying to have a nice discussion. So I'll spell it out for you.
    Dunno where you think the hostility is. ...was it because I said smart? ...is the word smart offensive now? D:

    We have friends. We do run dungeons. We just cannot run them as often as we like because everyone has DIFFERENT SCHEDULES. Something you can't or don't want to understand. But I can assume (If I am wrong I apologize. But in the likely case I am not. feel free to try and lie your way out.) you are jobless and not going to school. So you have most likely all the free time in the world which is why you cannot be empathetic to anothers problem.
    I didn't (in your quote) make a 4 page long rant about things wrong with your post, dear, try not to pretend anyone who responds to you without ten thousand smilies is ignorant, stupid, or rude, or living in their mom's basement. I can only play in the evenings and find plenty of groups in realistic times coinsiding with population, time zone, and my class/role, through friends and randoms. A minute to 3 hours. Sounds about right.

    Sorry I'm okay with questing/rare camping/PvPing/achievement hunting/chatting with friends/doing events/using the AH/crafting/leveling/artifact hunting/tabbing out/doing rifts/chatting in random channels/chatting in guild or whatever else is in the game I haven't yet done and don't just sit there and think about how bad my life is because an instance isn't popping, or how bad the game is or some such.

    Next.
    Oh, do go on...

    And destroying a lot of communities. A lot of guilds will crumble to this as will servers. So while some people may reconnect and play together again because of a bad server roll those numbers will be few. I assure you of this much at least.
    <shrug> Sorry, I don't see all the doom and gloom. Trion seems to have their head on straight and have been implementing things in a timely manner, and in ways they should be done according to common sense... Common sense says low pop servers should merge so we're all med-high pop servers (not full or broken or queued, just populated) and full servers should spread out among the lower pop servers. I'm hoping they don't allow absolute player control over server transfers from release, because then it might just all be bad. They should guide the transfers at first, then let it be open. But that's just my take on it.

    Anyway...if one guy leaving will destroy your guild, it wasn't much of a guild. It was 3 guys and a cat who could bat a mouse. (sorry, totally didn't see that, that's terrible...lol) If someone leaves without saying anything or ruins a good thing, it's because he was a bad guy. That doesn't speak for everyone and we don't really know what's going to happen. I remember two other games I've been in where servers were broken up, merged, and then they allowed transferring. Everything was a little bumpy for a few weeks, but then a vast majority of players were happier because the population was brought back together and after the guided merges, people were allowed to jump around where they needed to be for free for a limited amount of time and that was that.

    Of course sometimes it doesn't work out right and deserted servers are left deserted or big servers break up and then every server is only slightly less deserted with three-six perma-full realms...but hey, we can't control or know everything. Again, sorry our experiences are different?

    As for the "if you people were smart." comment. Amassing many guilds, people on different servers to come together on one shard is about the hardest thing anyone could possibly do. Imagine a complete stranger going to your shard and asking your guild to come join a bunch of others that are merging onto a server to create a healthy and new economy. Think about what you are honestly asking people to do. Do you not think some people have friends that would be unwilling to go? Due to other friends not in the guild or they just like the server? That may work once. IF that. But not enough to make an actual difference. I think you need to start thinking things through a little better. It's absurd to ask someone to do that much. Or for people to even listen.
    AH HAH! It was the word smart. And.....eeeeehhhhhh.... I can imagine it, yeah...but I can imagine a pink, sparkly pony with elephant ears and a poka-dotted diaper on. Doesn't make it...real, always there, the norm, the rule, the whatever.

    I guess I should feel sorry for you? I'm not sure, really. I come from a history of games with (as corny as it sounds) rich, mature, and resilient communities. These games we spit on so easily, daily now were once entirely powered by communities. It's a pretty recent thing (last 3 years or so) that the MMO community has turned into a cesspool of whiny crybabies who wouldn't lift a finger even if the simple act of lifting that finger would save a million lives.

    Point being, it wasn't just imaginable to ask a server/shard/realm whatever to band together for a cause, it was a common occurance. Someone could enact hop-on-one-leg day, and as long as that one person was willing to plant the seed of SOMETHING to be done as a community, he could rally together tens of thousands of people to participate in something.

    Hell, I guess you weren't around back when there were no such thing as official forums and suggestion tickets in game...before one guy getting killed by another guy 10 levels higher than him could cry about it and get the entire game rebalanced. In order to get anyone in a position of development to pay attention, you had to make waves in game and out of game. Server crashing, local news creating, ten-thousand character participating in, game make/break fricken tidal waves.

    So, I agree somewhat with your last two sentences, only I would add a few words.

    It is NOW absurd to ask ANYONE to do ANYTHING.

    No. The simpler solution that would not destroy some shards would be to simply allow cross shard dungeons. If you honestly think not one shard will be left broken and destroyed by the lack of people you are fooling yourself. PVP is cross shard. It did not hurt anyones being close. In fact my guild does pvp often too. But the ques are instant. If they weren't cross shard who knows how long they'd be.
    According to some of these posts, including yours, shards are already broken and destroyed by the lack of people. It's the end of the world! ...also, they're already doing the server transfer thing, so that's not something anyone can really stop. A pretty common trend in MMOs is the ability to keep something from happening, but the inability to change something/remove something in any realistic time frame once it's implemented. (unless of course it's severly broken and affecting a majority of the playerbase)

    You, you, you. Your friends, your guild, your this, your that. Me, me, me, me, me. I'm not thinking about just you. I'm not thinking about just me. We have a guild, we have friends. I'm thinking about all these other players, the players that haven't even gotten to RIFT yet, the people who are joining daily... I don't know what game history you have, but let's take a well known classic for this example...WoW.

    If you played before cross-realm LFD, you may remember how you made some, all, a lot, a few, whatever, of your friends. Those long convos walking to instances, the learning experience of every instance, learning your class and talking about it to the people in your group. Chatting about random things. Adding people to your friend list and maybe even finding a new guild filled with like-minded people and a new 'home'.

    Fast forward to cross-realm LFD. If you speak, you get yelled at. If you have a piece of gear someone doesn't like, insultinsultkick. If you speak, insultinsultkick. If you do something wrong, insultinsultkick. If someone doesn't like your name, insultinsultkick. If someone's friend logs on, kick. If it's you against 2/3/4 people from the same guild, kick. If you go afk, and say afk/brb, kick. If you ask about an encounter, insultinsultkick. If you ask about your class or how you're doing, insultinsultinsult, kick. I put more people on my ignore list in one MONTH from cross-server randoms than I put friends on my friendlist from 3 years without it. I had to download addons to make my ignore list infinite.

    I didn't find more cool people or friends with cross-server LFD, it didn't help build community/open the way for more community features, it didn't help anything. It got me more gear, faster, so I could turn around and go afk for days on my empty server, or populated server, to be rejected by jaded, assholian jerks who couldn't stand the idea of reading one single sentence that said 'my main has done all the bosses' and would insta-ignore you if you didn't link a completed achievement and pass a GS rollover where they required 2 tiers above the current content to pass.

    It ruined a crapton of gameplay and difficulty throughout the entirety of the game along with community and the very notion of acting in any way like a decent human being.

    If you ask me, and you DID by responding in such a manner. You need to think of cause and the effect afterwards.
    That's the problem, I am...I'm thinking way too into it.

    It's for the good of the commmunity.
    Sorry, I just don't agree.

    Just because you want to move a mountain instead of paving through it does not mean more effort is good.
    You do realize they are both about the same amount of effort, don't you? Everything you blast out of the mountain has to be moved away, restructured, and resupported. I'm from WV, believe me, I know both sides of that bit.

    Think before you speak.
    I think too much before I speak.

    TL;DR
    Fail troll is fail.
    When you make a TL;DR, you're saying, 'My post is worthless, even I recognize it. I just typed all this out to pass the time by while sitting in LFD and don't really care about what it says and probably didn't even think it out.'

    That's something I say everytime I see a TL;DR, don't feel special.

    And, again, that's all my opinion and experience...it's totally okay if you don't agree or whatever. We're not the same person, so don't think I have some sort of deep-seeded hatred for you or something because I typed a bunch of letters on a screen.

  12. #12
    Plane Walker Dourgen's Avatar
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    I have read all arguments for and against.
    I still say no thank you. Nothing will replace the loss of accountability which leads to rudeness and ninja mentality. It saps all fun out of the dungeons, all sense of community. It happened in WoW. I left. What is a short Q worth if you have no fun when you get there?

    PvP servers have long Q for PVE content? I don't mean to be rude but this is not exactly shocking. You made that bed.

    Oceanic friends....sorry there is no good answer for you there. And I am in the same boat being in an odd timezone to get good groups often. I suggest large and/or late night guilds. Also, I have been able to slowly but surely put together a friends list consisting of people who play in my time zone. Post in your shard forums. But here still, a long Q with accountable players > short q full of ninjas.
    Thanks for the haircuts.

  13. #13
    Shadowlander AlluvialSin's Avatar
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    Default @KnirpsLyn and OP

    @KnirpsLyn I like your post and wanted to second that I agree with the cross shard LFD creating a bad community.

    Few things, you said a lot of the insultinsultkicks that happened to people, but its even more then that as there are always the people who feel as they aren't playing with anyone they will ever see again go right ahead and try to loot anything they want, and though its in conjunction with what you already said they are many times (not always) outright rude to people. Partly because cross shard/server creates even more of a non-accountable enviornment then the internet and these games already are.


    @OP I understand where you're coming from in wanting to get in groups but, lets look at WoW once more, It spent how many years without a cross realm LFG??? Far long enough to support that this game will not fall simply due to long queue's in fact I think I remember the days of the LFG channel working just fine.

    Yes you(meaning any player looking for a group) might have to put in some extra effort to get people for pugs but personally I would much rather group with people on my server. I like to talk to them, make friends out of them, find possible new guild mates, possible Raid people, etc etc.

    Point being you lose a lot when you introduce cross server/cross shard when in return and in my own opinion you gain very little. (you might get in a bit faster but usually the problem is more of how easy leveling is unless your 50 trying to do an instance is hard because you can just go do your other quests or rifts or even PvP and level up just as fast if not much faster. I get the feeling many just don't care to do them.)

  14. #14
    Rift Chaser
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    Unless you've waited in a queue for 4 hrs, you shouldn't be allowed to vote on cross-shard.

    It's needed, maybe not for you, but for others.

  15. #15
    Shield of Telara KnirpsLyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danza View Post
    Unless you've waited in a queue for 4 hrs, you shouldn't be allowed to vote on cross-shard.

    It's needed, maybe not for you, but for others.
    Yep, I waited in queue once from 2 am to 8 am.

    It was horrible! I mean, all I did was watch a movie, chat with people in the game, in guild, and on vent, level, find 4 rares, like 100 artifacts (good day that was), had a snack... [sarcasm]Oh, er, wait, I mean, I sat still staring at the screen, screaming at it for being a terrible game because no one was playing with me or queueing. Obviously, it's just a broken game and it should get cross-shard LFD or it will CLEARLY die. Cause, yeah, there's only 2 people playing right now and uh...the game is dead?[/sarcasm]

    It's not NEEDED. Maybe it is for you, but not others.

    Hey, look at that, it works both ways. Now I can try and speak for everyone and assume they all agree with me, too!
    Last edited by KnirpsLyn; 06-17-2011 at 08:44 PM.

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