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Thread: My idea, warning and recommendation to Trion

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default My idea, warning and recommendation to Trion

    Dear members of this forum and Trion,

    We live in exciting times. The MMO-market is as rampant as ever, with the powerhouse of MMO's finally flinching and Rift rising, as well as several other titles coming up, it could not be a more exciting time to be an MMO player. This post will consist of three parts: Tiered raiding, the psychology behind it and my own verdict.

    Tiered Raiding: an explanation

    Recently, Patch 1.3 and Hammerknell have been announced, along with an awesome trailer. Shows all the good things, leaves you wanting more. Water is a very good theme to work with. Insanity, madness, cruelty. A very cool theme, I recommend you work with the underlying insanity of the Plane of Water, but I am quite confident you will. I haven't tested Hammerknell myself, unfortunately.

    For the first time in years, we will finally have a proper MMO with 'tiered raiding'. If you do not know what that is. It means you must go through tier 1 first to get to tier 2. Then go through tier 2 to get to tier 3 etc. You must first step on step of the stairs before continueing on to the next.

    We all know WoW has abandoned that philosophy. WoW brings the stairway down for you, as soon as a new stairstep has appeared. We have not seen a tiered system since TBC.

    May I state that the biggest rise of subscribers was during TBC. Don't bring me the argument that most subscribers was during Wrath, the biggest 'time deritave' of subscribers was during TBC. TBC was tiered raiding.

    The Psychology

    Now, finally, Trion has unleashed the second Tier, hopefully they will not follow the 'new philosophy of WoW' and stick to things that work.

    It is instant gratification versus delayed gratification, the psychology of the mature versus the immature.

    Trion differentiaties itself from Blizzard in two very distinct ways:
    -Incredible speed in delivering content patches (this is excellent, keep this up, it will draw customers)
    -Listening to what their customers want

    Here is another, very important, industry-breaking difference for you:
    Do NOT appeal to the writhing mass of immature players begging for instant gratification

    It might not be apparent now, but it will as your subscriber numbers grow, and this is my warning.
    Do not make previous raids obsolete because you want to appeal to these people. It will not work in the long-term.

    A classic psychology experiment, involving one child and two 'treats'.

    It has an hour of time. It is given the choice, eat one treat now or wait an hour and have two treats. I believe it is quite obvious which one is more mature.

    Delayed gratification versus instant gratification.

    Trion, you have made one minor mistake already, nerfing down Expert Dungeons. This is not the way to go, some will be happy with this in the short term, long term it is a big mistake. You are standing on the wrong road to appealling to a mass of whiners. Be the mature parent in this sense. And yes, many sources have been giving that the experts definately feel easier.

    In my opinion even: upgrade them, make them slightly harder, people have had their chance to gear up, the rest will simply have to skill up. It will only make your playerbase more mature, more skilled and more fun and relaxing to work with.

    World of Warcraft has gone down the path of appealling to the instant-gratification-children. Will you too? Or will you continue the path they took when they were rising the most?


    Will you not make that fatal mistake?


    My verdict:

    I am very impressed with the people at Trion so far, those content patches come out very quickly and Hammerknell just looks absolutely awesome. However, I do hope you do not make the same mistake as other games. I am rooting for you all in the Trion Office! My recommendations:

    -Do not dumb down content
    -Keep raiding tiered
    -Only dumb down content a month before an expansion or preferably not at all, (people will get into it once the expansion hits)

    Good luck and keep up the good work!

    NB: I do not know anything about PvP, nor do I care. Trion stated this would be a PvE game, and they are doing so excellently. Since I don't know anything about PvP, I will not make a statement about it.

  2. #2
    Rift Disciple
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    Three cheers for Drayah.

    Thank you, you so eloquently explained my thoughts and why I left that other cesspool behind.

    Thank you.

  3. #3
    Rift Disciple
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    Yeah cause all the hardcore MMO's are doing so well...

  4. #4
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by KataSteel View Post
    Yeah cause all the hardcore MMO's are doing so well...
    In a tiered raiding system, you cater to all. There is a raid for all types of players. The problem lies in the fact that some so-called casual players feel the need to see everything (including individuals who have immense amounts of time) I've also met casual players who are simply happy with what they get.

    A ladder of raiding tiers will cater to all, from casual to hardcore, everyone will have a piece of the ladder 'nearly perfect' for them.

    The Following scenario depicts the issue: when the lower part of the ladder starts shouting at the higher part that they want to see the view as well, while not wanting to work for it.

  5. #5
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    10/10 on presenting your OPINIONS as FACT
    0/10 on presenting facts
    0/10 on making a valid point
    0/10 on your opinion

  6. #6
    Prophet of Telara Goodberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drayah View Post
    In a tiered raiding system, you cater to all. There is a raid for all types of players. The problem lies in the fact that some so-called casual players feel the need to see everything (including individuals who have immense amounts of time) I've also met casual players who are simply happy with what they get.

    A ladder of raiding tiers will cater to all, from casual to hardcore, everyone will have a piece of the ladder 'nearly perfect' for them.

    The Following scenario depicts the issue: when the lower part of the ladder starts shouting at the higher part that they want to see the view as well, while not wanting to work for it.
    Your philosophy makes a game look like a factory.

    Now, factories have many shortcomings (I have known them from the inside), but people at least get paid, albeit often not enough, for working in them.

    Your economy model fails because players, instead, pay to have the privilege of working in your factory.

    So the smarter people will stop paying to work and will look for other pastures. The less smart will stay, triggering a reverse Darwinian mechanism.

    The result of that is the current WoW community. Every community where people pays to work will end the same way - that's the power of natural selection, direct or inverse.
    Never give a sword to a man who can't dance (Confucius)

  7. #7
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    That "writhing mass" pays the bills.

  8. #8
    Imi
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    I agree that raiding needs to remain tiered. When Blizz would nerf content (generally by upgrading the badge gear) so that you could go straight from heroics to the last raid, they would immediately obsolete all previous raid content.

    There is no reason why you cannot maintain the T1-T2-T3-++ philosophy all of the way through.

    Simply ensure that small guilds have a similar progression path through 5-man or 10-man raids.

    In addition, endgame raids should always be retuned when an expansion changes the level cap.

  9. #9
    Imi
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    Quote Originally Posted by KataSteel View Post
    Yeah cause all the hardcore MMO's are doing so well...
    WoW had 11 million subs in Burning Crusade.

  10. #10
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goodberry View Post
    Your philosophy makes a game look like a factory.

    Now, factories have many shortcomings (I have known them from the inside), but people at least get paid, albeit often not enough, for working in them.

    Your economy model fails because players, instead, pay to have the privilege of working in your factory.

    So the smarter people will stop paying to work and will look for other pastures. The less smart will stay, triggering a reverse Darwinian mechanism.

    The result of that is the current WoW community. Every community where people pays to work will end the same way - that's the power of natural selection, direct or inverse.
    Your explanation of the factory model is interesting, yet the link between my explanation and your model is mostly unelaborated. From what I understand from it:

    Your model implies smarter people will look for other MMO's where the content gets dumbed down. (Personally, I've seen a significant decrease in common social skills and intelligence from TBC to Cata) If being smart implies not wanting to progress as a player, I must be a very dumb individual.

    Yes, players will have to work to 'unlock' new content. If you buy a console game, you don't send a letter to the developer stating you can't beat level 5 but insist on getting some sort of code to get to level 6. No, you bash your head at it and you get better until you deserve to get to level 6.

    In a factory, people work for money, not for unlocking new departments.

    For myself, and I hope for many of you, I gamed for challenge. Challenge was my fun, I didn't like Super Mario Bros because of the twinkly stars on the background. It was because at the end of the game I had achieved something and felt good about myself because I had become better at the game.

    Trust me, you will feel much better about yourself beating Hammerknell before everything is dumbed down, because you overcame a challenge, than after it was nerfed, simply because the challenge is gone.

    Your last sentence confuses me, you're saying it was because of the challenges people had to overcome (or work people had to do), that people became dumb?

    Perhaps you could elaborate the link between our models more.

    That "writhing mass" pays the bills.
    Perhaps so on first sight. There are two reasons why I disagree with this:

    1: Most people reacting on game forums are whining, most people who simply accept don't post on these forums. If a company reacts to the whines, they are not supporting any majority.

    2: If I recall, most of the writhing mass came to the game during TBC, when there was tiered content.
    The reason I think most people still play WoW is because of community, people they've played with for years they do not want to leave.

    Hope that clears things up

    Cheers
    Last edited by Drayah; 06-08-2011 at 10:04 AM.

  11. #11
    Rift Chaser Excelsia's Avatar
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    While I think you have a very nice, readable post, OP, I always am kind of amazed that the WoWspeak is so prevalent on these forums and in the game. There are quite a few playing Rift who have never played WoW, and the constant comparison, though I understand it is inevitable, is tedious at best. And wth is TBC?

    I like the tiered raiding too, though I'm still not there yet. I just hope there are others to raid with me when I start, and not all have moved on to the higher tiers.

  12. #12
    Rift Master Josaline's Avatar
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    Why do you compare WoW to this game? There are many great games out there that have continued customer support and new players paying for them all the time.
    It is irritating to say the least when someone decides to post facts which are based solely on one other game that in fact leaves a lot of cumulative information out.
    My friends have vent up with different chapters in it. Each channel is dedicated to which game they are playing, many of them EQ and EQ2 players.

    Whilst I appreciate the tone of your post, please include all games that are still going strong. WoW was never played by many people.
    "Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is important that you do it" - Ghandi

  13. #13
    Imi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Excelsia View Post
    And wth is TBC?
    TBC is "The Burning Crusade", the 1st expansion of WoW and generally considered (I believe) to be the pinnacle of raiding in WoW.

    The classes were balanced well (with just a few exceptions), the raids were challenging with gear checks to avoid skipping tiers, and progression required medium-sized groups (25-man).

    All of that was flushed down the toilet in the WotLK expansion that followed.

  14. #14
    Imi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josaline View Post
    Why do you compare WoW to this game?
    Trion is explicitly making this comparison, so it's natural for the players to do so as well.

  15. #15
    Soulwalker
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    I've always considered categorically delineating those of differing opinion as "immature" to be the epitome of rational and mature discourse. Kudos.

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