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Thread: Self heals are too powerful - A proposed fix to self heal spam

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Self heals are too powerful - A proposed fix to self heal spam

    I think many of you that don't play a healer or a class with a powerful self heal will share my frustration when you are attacking a healer either in warfront's or open world pvp and they just keep self healing with impunity.

    The fact of the matter is, in order to function correctly in pve a healers spells need to be very powerful in order to keep up with elite mob and boss dps. In all cases healing spells are much more powerful than the damage a player can dish out. This is good for pve because it keeps the tank alive but is bad in pvp because healers can just spam themselves with heals.

    There are mechanics in place to hinder a healer from spamming heals on themselves but they are far too under powered to make any noticeable difference. A 5 second spell interrupt or an 8 second silence is not enough to strip a healers 4k to 5k health. In the majority of cases the only viable solution to killing a healer is to focus fire them, which I believe limits a players options when facing the cleric class and also unbalancing 1v1 encounters in warfronts as well as open world pvp.

    I propose a very effective solution to this problem, without having to buff and possibly unbalance all other classes spell interrupt abilities.

    In order to limit a clerics (and other powerful healing classes/souls) ability to self heal spam as well as retain their powerful heals in pve I propose to add a diminishing returns debuff every time they cast a healing spell on themselves.

    What I suggest is a 1 minute stackable debuff which reduces healing to yourself by 50% for each stack.

    So for example, if a cleric casts a self heal spell which heals for a 1000 hp they will gain 1 stack. If they cast the same spell again within 1 minute the same heal will only heal them for 500 hp. If they cast it a third time they will only heal for 250 hp and so on, with the stacks being refreshed for every self heal cast.

    If the heal is a hot, the heal over time will heal for the full amount but if the hot is cast again, the full heal amount will be halfed (so each hot tick will be half, instead of subsequent reduction).

    This mechanic is intended to stop healers self heal spamming and would not effect healer's healing each other. I believe this solution would balance healing type classes more fairly with other classes who do not have access to healing mechanics and increase team work.

    This proposed debuff would not effect all healing spells, only spammable healing spells with very short cooldowns or multiple hots that can be cast over each other. Anything with a cooldown of over 1 minute should be exempt.

    Thank you for reading, if you have any feedback please post in this thread.
    Last edited by Cestia; 05-28-2011 at 01:51 AM.

  2. #2
    Plane Walker Agobi's Avatar
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    So basically make it so healers have low dps, and poor heals as well? doesn't sound like a plan to me

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    Champion Flynch's Avatar
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    An interesting stance. I share your frustrations when I play my warrior and attempt to take down a cleric in WFs so I can see this being a possible solution inside the instanced PvP areas.

    However on my cleric when I PvE I use soul-drain for AoE damage and healing. With this debuff i'd be severely hampered after just one soul-drain and there's a good chance i'd be unable to sustain my HP when aggroing a 7-strong group.

    Any thoughts on this type of heal? Or are you just concerned with the heal-on-target spells?

  4. #4
    Rift Disciple
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    Default only for pvp?

    Would this debuff only work for PVP? I can tell you that levelling a caster cleric is hard work and you often need to flat out heal yourself to survive a few mobs. We dont have the dps in a mainly heals spec that other classes have.

    I would suggest perhaps you try levelling a few different classes to about level 35 or so (if you have not already) and maybe get a bigger picture.

  5. #5
    Prophet of Telara Efaicia's Avatar
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    In all that, I see no mention of the cleric killing you.
    So, you are basically saying you don't want the cleric to be able to heal OR kill?
    hots are purge-able for a reason.
    Last edited by Efaicia; 05-28-2011 at 02:07 AM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flynch View Post
    An interesting stance. I share your frustrations when I play my warrior and attempt to take down a cleric in WFs so I can see this being a possible solution inside the instanced PvP areas.

    However on my cleric when I PvE I use soul-drain for AoE damage and healing. With this debuff i'd be severely hampered after just one soul-drain and there's a good chance i'd be unable to sustain my HP when aggroing a 7-strong group.

    Any thoughts on this type of heal? Or are you just concerned with the heal-on-target spells?
    Each healing type spelll would have to be carefully looked at. Soul drain has a 10 second cooldown and a 2 second cast time so I wouldn't consider it spammable as such.

    Quote Originally Posted by Efaicia View Post
    In all that, I see no mention of the cleric killing you.
    So, you are basically saying you don't want the cleric to be able to heal OR kill?
    What I am saying is, as a Warrior, I don't have the dps or the abilities to stop a cleric from heal spamming themselves. So without radically changing the dps or abilities of warrior souls I suggest balancing the way a cleric can use their easily spammable healing spells on themselves.
    Last edited by Cestia; 05-28-2011 at 02:10 AM.

  7. #7
    Champion Flynch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Efaicia View Post
    In all that, I see no mention of the cleric killing you.
    So, you are basically saying you don't want the cleric to be able to heal OR kill?
    I don't think the issue is being killed by the cleric. Only that they are a sentinel (pardon the pun) and can dish out heals to aid their comrades (and we know that WFs are won by healers for the most part) as well as taking considerable damage.

    Not to mention when in BG if a shielded cleric is the carrier, then holy-hell it can be a nightmare to turn the tide of battle.

  8. #8
    Plane Touched Noctrin's Avatar
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    Cleric has:
    The least burst
    Little to no CC
    No stealth
    No sprint
    No break free unless we spec templar(pvp soul)
    1 root/slow CC immunity (in warden)
    No "blink" type spell (the cabalist one is pure crap)

    We have no way to control fights, no way to run and we can't exactly play the burst game vs champions, (most)rogues or pyros (and a few other builds). We also can't CC or break them really.

    Clerics have to outlast, we are hard to kill because we can soak up a certain amount of dps. An 8 seconds silence not enough ?! 8 seconds of me not being able to do ANYTHING is not enough?!

    Sorry to say this, but if people were able to render you useless for 8 seconds, I doubt u'd be to happy. I spend a good portion stunned/silenced. There is also such a thing as a 50% healing debuff, both rogues and warriors have it, pyros can burst through my healing without even breaking a sweat if they have gear above t1 blues.

    If with a silence, stun, spell interrupt and 50% healing debuff you cannot kill a healer. I suggest hello kitty online. I hear they have good class ballance there. If you mash your dps macro and expect a half brained healer to die, u fail.

    Not to mention that if you spec for healing you can't kill. If all i can do is heal, how is it fair that 1 person can kill me 1 vs 1 without issues when i can't touch them. Why not put a big arrow on healers and say free favor?

    If you are not specced with any sort of anti-caster abilities, you won't kill healers. Simple as that, spec to kill healers and you'll notice how easy it is.
    Last edited by Noctrin; 05-28-2011 at 02:13 AM.
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  9. #9
    Prophet of Telara Efaicia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flynch View Post
    I don't think the issue is being killed by the cleric. Only that they are a sentinel (pardon the pun) and can dish out heals to aid their comrades (and we know that WFs are won by healers for the most part) as well as taking considerable damage.

    Not to mention when in BG if a shielded cleric is the carrier, then holy-hell it can be a nightmare to turn the tide of battle.
    Then don't go after them solo. GAWD team work! *gasp* shocking to consider, I know. They cant solo you, you cant solo them, how does this not sound balanced?
    This isn't a 1v1 game.
    Heals can be countered by purges/silences/interupts. I have yet to see a BG that isn't at least half mages, and they have all the tools to kill them.
    Last edited by Efaicia; 05-28-2011 at 02:14 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Efaicia View Post
    Then don't go after them solo. GAWD team work! *gasp* shocking to consider, I know. They cant solo you, you cant solo them, how does this not sound balanced?
    This isn't a 1v1 game.
    Heals can be countered by purges/silences/interupts. I have yet to see a BG that isn't at least half mages, and they have all the tools to kill them.
    Honestly, I agree with you and have gotten tired of screaming in chat to get them to go for the healers. But they farm the rogues or mages instead.

    Hence why I almost always end up 1v1 on the healer and by the time i've actually done some damage, i've been spanked by the rest of the cleric's team.

    This thread is about waxing lyrical really. No need to get uppity ;)

  11. #11
    Prophet of Telara Efaicia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flynch View Post
    Honestly, I agree with you and have gotten tired of screaming in chat to get them to go for the healers. But they farm the rogues or mages instead.

    Hence why I almost always end up 1v1 on the healer and by the time i've actually done some damage, i've been spanked by the rest of the cleric's team.

    This thread is about waxing lyrical really. No need to get uppity ;)
    then that is not a "nerf heals" issue, that is a teamwork and coordination issue, or lack thereof. Not the healers fault if your team can't work together. And what did you expect from a pug team anyway?

  12. #12
    Champion Flynch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Efaicia View Post
    then that is not a "nerf heals" issue, that is a teamwork and coordination issue, or lack thereof. Not the healers fault if your team can't work together. And what did you expect from a pug team anyway?
    Well this is the point. A lot of people are PUGing in WFs and hence the frustration. Teamwork, coordination and communication are always lacking in PUGs unless you have some downtime (ie. PvE) so this is obviously the angle the OP is coming from.

    Shouldn't take a premade on Vent to take down a healer. It's an interesting discussion, primarily from the views of those in premades and those in PUGs and the differences in experience between the two.

    PS. Devil's advocate. Just in case you haven't caught that yet.

  13. #13
    Prophet of Telara Efaicia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flynch View Post
    Well this is the point. A lot of people are PUGing in WFs and hence the frustration. Teamwork, coordination and communication are always lacking in PUGs unless you have some downtime (ie. PvE) so this is obviously the angle the OP is coming from.

    Shouldn't take a premade on Vent to take down a healer. It's an interesting discussion, primarily from the views of those in premades and those in PUGs and the differences in experience between the two.

    PS. Devil's advocate. Just in case you haven't caught that yet.
    I still don't see where this is the healers fault and why this means heals need to be nerfed.
    OHHH
    you mean do to them what they did to the dungeons?
    Gotcha.
    Still a pug issue. You have time before the BG starts (you know that countdown at the start where you are waiting behind a wall?) to come up with a battle plan. Anti-socialism is not something you want to bring with you to an mmo, you will eventually have to communicate with someone. I'm guessing Everyone that plays in a bg has the capability of communication and can also bring in a group of their friends. This is not something that only the elites have access to.
    So...you want YOUR healer to be nerfed to crap and solo-able?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cestia View Post
    What I am saying is, as a Warrior, I don't have the dps or the abilities to stop a cleric from heal spamming themselves. So without radically changing the dps or abilities of warrior souls I suggest balancing the way a cleric can use their easily spammable healing spells on themselves.
    I can pretty much solo a cleric healer as a champion.

  15. #15
    Champion Flynch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Efaicia View Post
    I still don't see where this is the healers fault and why this means heals need to be nerfed.
    OHHH
    you mean do to them what they did to the dungeons?
    Gotcha.
    Still a pug issue. You have time before the BG starts (you know that countdown at the start where you are waiting behind a wall?) to come up with a battle plan. Anti-socialism is not something you want to bring with you to an mmo, you will eventually have to communicate with someone. I'm guessing Everyone that plays in a bg has the capability of communication and can also bring in a group of their friends. This is not something that only the elites have access to.
    So...you want YOUR healer to be nerfed to crap and solo-able?

    Not especially - considering my main is a cleric ;)

    And trust me, as far as communication goes, it's normally me and 1 other person who actually says anything in /warfront.

    Personally i'm not advocating nerfs, i'm advocating discussion and as i've said, i'm more interested in seeing the various perspectives on how effective clerics are, from both a PUG and pre-made standing in the WFs.

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