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Thread: Fair loot system

  1. #1
    Shadowlander Kelenan's Avatar
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    Default Fair loot system

    Please take the loot distribution out of the hands of people entirely. I understand why masterlooter was created but it relies on the integrety of people to make sure the loot is divied up fairly.

    Problem is, that is rarley the case. Peoples greed for imaginary gear is unprecidented. The system needs to be done in game only even in raids.

    My idea is as follows.


    If an item drops that your class can use only that class can see it. Only if it is an actual upgrade for you, can you even have the ability to roll on it. This needs to be done in game for everyone so that the greed of others does not interfere with fairness.

    Currently people place thier own little clicks before others and place the diehard players before others, in the raids as well. This is not fair to people at all. Why should it be that I need to play constantly to be eligible to get gear?

    I have children, a job, and a life. Why should I be denied a fair shot at loot because I worked late one day and missed 1 raid? Why should I be denied gear if I helped my child with homework instead of raiding constantly.

    Bottom line the boss would not be down if I wasn't there so why should I not get a fair shot at loot for my class that is an upgrade?

    I realize that this may take some true hard developmental effort to make a system such as I am suggesting.

    But in the need for fairness and to eliminate greed from being a factor it truley needs to be done.

    Please consider this earnestly and be the 1 MMO that is a groundbreaker in fair loot.
    Last edited by Kelenan; 05-27-2011 at 03:54 PM.

  2. #2
    Soulwalker
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    Default Here here

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelenan View Post
    I have children, a job, and a life. Why should I be denied a fair shot at loot because I worked late one day and missed 1 raid? Why should I be denied gear if I helped my child with homework instead of raiding constantly.

    Bottom line the boss would not be down if I wasn't there so why should I not get a fair shot at loot for my class that is an upgrade?

    .
    I too have a job , children, as well as grandchildren that live with me, I have to work on a staggered schedule so I am at raids when i can be there, I help with my grandkids and as anyone decent knows you can't be on the game with your full attention when you have an 8 yr old and a 5 yr old running around.... matter of fact you start to worry if it gets too quiet.

    So yes I agree if I am there and a boss goes down it went down WITH MY HELP and I should get a chance to roll on any loot that is an upgrade for my class. It should not be left up to other peoples integrity, because as we all know, even though this is a game we run into people that think its real. And will literally backstab you to get a peice of gear.

    The O.P. has a valid suggestion At least it is in the opinion of this player.

  3. #3
    Champion Ayenn's Avatar
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    If you are not at a raid you have not been denied anything. If you are not playing and don't get a drop while you are not playing you are not being denied something.

    Need before Greed is already "fair". What you have a problem with is you definition of need differs from the actual definition of need. Your definition of need is actually "unfair".
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  4. #4
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ayenn View Post
    If you are not at a raid you have not been denied anything. If you are not playing and don't get a drop while you are not playing you are not being denied something.

    Need before Greed is already "fair". What you have a problem with is you definition of need differs from the actual definition of need. Your definition of need is actually "unfair".
    Did you even read the O.P.? He was refering to master looter NOT the in game system.

  5. #5
    Champion Ayenn's Avatar
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    yeah, I did but misunderstood.
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  6. #6
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    master looter is the staple of doing FAIR raid loot, it is needed for any sort of raid guild and pugging. For pugging it is needed to enforce whatever distribution of loot is decided on up front.

    If you are pugging and do not like the agreed upon method of handling under the master looter, LEAVE THE RAID.

    For Raid guilds, they have there own agreed upon method of handling the loot under the master looter, if you do not like it, LEAVE THE RAID.

    Specifically for PROGRESSION guilds, they have systems in place more often than not to ensure that gear gets put in the hands of players that can be there consistently and help them progress, if you feel this is holding you back from getting gear then progression raiding is not what you want to do and casual raiding where you can typically get a piece per run is better for you.

    Either way, if you raid you will be dealing with a master looter system, it needed for FAIR distribution of loot in raids.

  7. #7
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    lol sooking bout not being able to receive loot...what the hell is happening here

    you can't make raids it's your loss, why should anyone else be denied the loot???
    We all have commitments outside of video games but I don't see why others should sacrifice their rewards for you or anyone else.

  8. #8
    Shadowlander Mydra's Avatar
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    This makes no sense to me, Masterloot is bad cause someone might abuse it? Because you dont contribute as much you think its unfair that people who contribute more get gear before you? Its funny because your mad at how a system mimics life, dont show up to work you dont get paid, but yet you want to get paid and not show up to work

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mydra View Post
    This makes no sense to me, Masterloot is bad cause someone might abuse it? Because you dont contribute as much you think its unfair that people who contribute more get gear before you? Its funny because your mad at how a system mimics life, dont show up to work you dont get paid, but yet you want to get paid and not show up to work
    It's not the same. He's talking about a DKP system, not missing out on loot that dropped while he wasn;t there.

    If you show up to work you get paid. You don't work for free because you weren't there yesterday.

    DKP systems are, and always will be, a controvercy of masive proportions. It comes down to this:

    People don't like it when they don't get to roll on loot when they were there helping in the raid. On the other hand, giving that loot to someone who might not be there for the next 3 weeks is not helping the guild.

    DKP systems are not about denying anyone loot, that's just what ends up happening.

    The theory behind DKP systems:

    DKP systems are about loot from a guild effort being used in the way that benefits the guild the most. This means giving the loot to people who are there more often so the guild gets the use of that item. It's nothing personal. It's not about you. It's about being fair to everyone rather than being fair to a person.

    So you get a piece of loot. But the next 3 raids you aren't there. You leave everyone else that helped you in the lurch, having to use someone else when they spent their effort to gear you. How is that fair to them?

    That's the theory anyway, it's just a different viewpoint on what's "fair".

    If you can't turn up every raid it's natural to not like this system. You play to achieve things just like everyone else and this is a huge drawback for you. I understand that. On top of that I personally don't like DKP systems. I never liked them even when I was in raiding guilds in other games and turned up every raid and got the points. However I have always understood what they were for and that there's more than one way to be "fair" in loot distribution.

    Whether you agree with it or not, you have to understand that your guild is trying to be fair to the largest number of people possible. With so many differing outlooks on what is "fair" you just can't please everyone when it comes to a touchy subject like Loot Distribution.

    Just sit back for a minute and let that sink in. I don't know your guild, it might be full of greedy 10 year olds for all I know, but in my experience most guild leaders are trying to be fair when they use DKP systems. They usually aren't trying to rip you off. They are usually trying to do the right thing. Give them a bit of credit for it.

    If you are truly stuck in one of the guilds where it IS greedy loot-whoring, and I agree it happens from time to time, then perhaps it's time to say Adios and find another guild. Not every guild is worth belonging to when all is said and done.
    Last edited by Greyhald; 05-28-2011 at 05:57 AM.
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  10. #10
    Plane Touched trinta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelenan View Post
    Currently people place thier own little clicks before others and place the diehard players before others, in the raids as well. This is not fair to people at all. Why should it be that I need to play constantly to be eligible to get gear?
    It does sound to me like you're placing your own little clicks before others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelenan View Post
    I have children, a job, and a life. Why should I be denied a fair shot at loot because I worked late one day and missed 1 raid? Why should I be denied gear if I helped my child with homework instead of raiding constantly.
    How are you being denied a fair shot? You get X points per raid? X points per boss kill? You have X points to spend, and the person who was at the last raid has Y points. Y > X, sure, but this is not unfair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelenan View Post
    Bottom line the boss would not be down if I wasn't there so why should I not get a fair shot at loot for my class that is an upgrade?
    So the raid that you weren't at, they didn't kill that boss, and your presence is the sole reason for the boss being down. If that is the case, I can understand your frustration. But in that case, you should just go solo the raid instead of carrying the other people who are obviously only there to steal your loot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelenan View Post
    But in the need for fairness and to eliminate greed from being a factor it truley needs to be done.
    It isn't that I think your suggestion is a bad one, I just think that your definitions of "fairness" and "greed" could use slightly more objective application.

  11. #11
    Ascendant Verodio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelenan View Post
    Please take the loot distribution out of the hands of people entirely. I understand why masterlooter was created but it relies on the integrety of people to make sure the loot is divied up fairly.

    Problem is, that is rarley the case. Peoples greed for imaginary gear is unprecidented. The system needs to be done in game only even in raids.

    My idea is as follows.


    If an item drops that your class can use only that class can see it. Only if it is an actual upgrade for you, can you even have the ability to roll on it. This needs to be done in game for everyone so that the greed of others does not interfere with fairness.

    Currently people place thier own little clicks before others and place the diehard players before others, in the raids as well. This is not fair to people at all. Why should it be that I need to play constantly to be eligible to get gear?

    I have children, a job, and a life. Why should I be denied a fair shot at loot because I worked late one day and missed 1 raid? Why should I be denied gear if I helped my child with homework instead of raiding constantly.

    Bottom line the boss would not be down if I wasn't there so why should I not get a fair shot at loot for my class that is an upgrade?

    I realize that this may take some true hard developmental effort to make a system such as I am suggesting.

    But in the need for fairness and to eliminate greed from being a factor it truley needs to be done.

    Please consider this earnestly and be the 1 MMO that is a groundbreaker in fair loot.
    I kind of get the feeling that you must be trolling but I'm gonna end up taking the bait. You ask why would the diehard players who are there constantly get the loot before someone who shows up every now and then? I really do hope that's trolling but you have to understand that you come off sounding like a greedy lootwhore and as a grandpa you come off sounding like someone 50 years younger.

    You don't get it because the loot is to help the guiild progress. The people who are there the most, helping the guild progress are going to make better use of gear. That doesn't mean you wont ever get anything, it's just that you won't get anything until the everyday players already have it. You'll get what they don't want or already have. That's completely fair in my opinion.

    Just because you helped kill one boss doesn't mean you helped kill all the others, it doesn't mean you'll show up on the nights when it's just 4 hours of slamming heads against the wall learning the fight. Come to think of it, were you there those other nights when the guiild was learning the fight or did you just come in and let them tell you what to do?

    Sorry if I'm sounding callous. It's attitudes like yours that demonstrate why master loot and a dkp system are needed in the first place. If I spent 3 nights learning a boss, didn't have my loot drop for 2 more kills of him and then, once he's on farm, you decide to show up and out random me for a piece of gear that I CLEARLY had worked harder for than you, I'd be pissed. You somehow, think that's fair though because you happened to show up one night.
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  12. #12
    Soulwalker
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    Default fair loot

    I have been watching these posts and am a bit appalled at the way you people think. If you really read the O.P. he states that Why should he be dropped down on the list because he missed 1 raid? He didnt once say he wanted loot when he wasnt there. He simply said that when he is there he should get a chance to roll. And I am sorry if it offends all you people out there but I completely agree.

    We all know that people are not fair, and that MOST will gear up their friends and their group first if they can and to hell with everyone else. What the O.P. is saying is that system Should be taken completely out of the people behind the players hand. The only way to be completely fair is to have it controlled by an A.I. system.

    So for all you haters out there , PLEASE PLEASE learn to read between the lines and discern the meaning and context of a post before making rash judgements and blasting someone for makeing a valid suggestion. Because as we all know, even if we dont want to admit it people are not fair and we have all ,at one time or another, in one game or another , ran into this problem.

  13. #13
    Ascendant Verodio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spiritphire View Post
    I have been watching these posts and am a bit appalled at the way you people think. If you really read the O.P. he states that Why should he be dropped down on the list because he missed 1 raid? He didnt once say he wanted loot when he wasnt there. He simply said that when he is there he should get a chance to roll. And I am sorry if it offends all you people out there but I completely agree.

    We all know that people are not fair, and that MOST will gear up their friends and their group first if they can and to hell with everyone else. What the O.P. is saying is that system Should be taken completely out of the people behind the players hand. The only way to be completely fair is to have it controlled by an A.I. system.

    So for all you haters out there , PLEASE PLEASE learn to read between the lines and discern the meaning and context of a post before making rash judgements and blasting someone for makeing a valid suggestion. Because as we all know, even if we dont want to admit it people are not fair and we have all ,at one time or another, in one game or another , ran into this problem.
    What you're describing is a loot council and a guild problem. Not a DKP problem. With DKP the points are right there on a website for all to plainly see. The person handing out the loot does not have a decision to make, they simply receive tells and then check to see who has the most points available. How is that not fair?

    If the OP is in a guild with a loot council and is being treated unfairly, he should move to another guild but this whole "I was there so I should get to random on loot" thing is absolutely feeble-minded.
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  14. #14
    Plane Touched trinta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verodio View Post
    What you're describing is a loot council and a guild problem. Not a DKP problem. With DKP the points are right there on a website for all to plainly see. The person handing out the loot does not have a decision to make, they simply receive tells and then check to see who has the most points available. How is that not fair?

    If the OP is in a guild with a loot council and is being treated unfairly, he should move to another guild but this whole "I was there so I should get to random on loot" thing is absolutely feeble-minded.
    QFT.

    If you raid with a guild where the rules allow for favoritism in loot distribution, you raid with a bad guild. You should find a guild with loot distribution rules that work better for you, instead of attempting to dictate how all loot distribution will work for everyone who plays the game.

  15. #15
    Champion of Telara Acesfool's Avatar
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    The best DKP system I ever used was one based on the suicide kings model. Some say it isn't really DKP, but it's always listed as a DKP system on nearly any website. Anyway, it simply created a random list of anyone who raids. When gear drops anyone interested in it would whisper the word "bid" to the loot master. The player closest to the top of the list wins the bid and would then be moved to the bottom of the list. Players could role for offspec gear if they wanted but they had to decide if they were willing to give up their position on the list for it.

    This turned out to be the fairest loot system, with the fewest complaints and least drama, I'd ever used.

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