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Thread: DKP for Rift?

  1. #16
    Ascendant July13th's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ayenn View Post
    I want the ability to roll on anything in a group or what ever situation. As a rogue I still can sell that plate or cloth for some gold or plat. I have just as much "right" to that as anyone else. The type of need in a need or greed system is totally subjective. That is not to say I often do role on that stuff but I want the option.
    This option would still allow you to need on stuff you can not equip if you are short on Plat. If money is a need atm it is need. You would just have to weigh your needs.

  2. #17
    Rift Disciple Gawdzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by July13th View Post
    This was originally posted on another thread http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...quot-Need-quot.

    I was thinking something like a DKP system for Need rolls. When you defeat endboss you gain some points. When you win a wf you gain some points. When you get an achievement you get some points. When you meet objectives in wf you get some points. This way a person seeking an upgrade may get it. A person wanting to Runebreak an item may get it but might not want to spend as many dkp as someone who wants the upgrade. A person who just wants the platinum for selling may get it but will be probably less willing to spend DKP on it or would quickly lose their DKP. If no one wants to spend dkp they can chose greed that has same loot rules as in game. If the DKP offered for a need item is a tie then it should have the same need roll as in game but for only the players that offered the same high bid. If a person loses the bid on DKP they should be able to keep their DKP. The winner should have their DKP deducted.

    Fair loot distribution seems to be a concern http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...m-Needs-update, http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...Roll-cool-down,
    http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...ront-BOP-Epics, http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...gible-Callings.

    I would love to get ideas pro and con on this suggestion (if you dont like the idea please explain why).
    Thank You

    While this is an interesting idea if has a few inherent flaws that could have a negative impact on the overall quality of life for newer players. This is a system that rewards two primary things: Time spent playing and overall activity during this time. While this is not a bad thing in and of itself, it would begin to slowly give new players an unfair environment for no other reason except for the simple fact that they are new.

    The only way a system like this would work, especially if you wanted to to carry over into raids and other aspects of the game: You would need it based on a zero-sum point distribution method complete with diminishing returns with points earned per activity over a spectrum of time within the week. This would ensure every player is reset back to 0 at the end of each week so there would be no long-term negative effect.

    If a new player joins the game and long time players in his guild had months and months of unspent points they would begin to lose interest in the game overall. This is an item-focused game where the collection of various items is the underlying reason for playing, period. If you take this aspect away from new players, you will quickly find a game with absolutely zero growth. It would kill itself over a very short period of time since it would punish new players for no reason at all.

    If all points were reset weekly it would give the system a fair environment at the beginning of every week, but then after a short while you would end up with players wanting to dump their surplus on vendor trash just so the points don't go to waste. it would basically be a little worse than the current system because it would allow players a consistent and stable way to hinder the progression of others for the sake of their own personal interest. Such as trying to slow the gearing process for other guilds so they can remain a top guild longer, et cetera.

    While point distribution works well for organized guilds, this is only because they can externally control all variables and account for new players to try and make it worth a new players effort to want to participate in their events. With a system under only the technical control of Trion, that would leave a lot of people out in the cold.

    This system sadly has too many social and mechanical drawbacks to make it a viable solution. The only way to make it fair also makes it pointless. Without a zero-sum mechanic on a short cooldown, it simply becomes economical inflation and will cause the game to fall under its own weight. An MMO is all about growth and change over time and this system promotes neither of those things.

    This is exactly why a revised Need Before Greed is a much better overall system. It is also easier to manage, and is pseudo-random making it as far as possible each and every roll. It is the only truly fair way to distribute pug loot without giving favor to one group of people and alienating another.

    The entire problem as a whole is a social problem and cannot be directly fixed with mechanical means without having some sort of large-scale negative impact on a player demographic on same level. This problem can be mitigated by more strict looting rules via mechanical means. However, the underlying problem has to be fixed socially. This means strict bans go out to ninjas - period. Make people think twice about it knowing they could very well be banned for doing it.

    While your idea is cool, it simply won't work outside of giving guilds an in-game DKP system.
    Last edited by Gawdzilla; 05-25-2011 at 09:32 AM.

  3. #18
    Rift Disciple Gawdzilla's Avatar
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    Lol. My phone messed up above text up pretty bad with auto-correction and i can't edit to fix

  4. #19
    Ascendant July13th's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raimla View Post
    I don't want DKP with LFG tool or dungeon runs. We might only meet there once in that run. We both put in the same time (and hopeful effort) in that one run. So why should his/her amount of playtime impact my gameplay and the other way round?
    Thanks for input. It shouldnt be called DKP. People know what DKP is and their is a use for a DKP system for guilds or set raid groups. I was trying to propose a fair loot distribution system for use with or without guilds. Just trying to get some more ideas out to be useful and fair to everyone.

  5. #20
    Plane Touched Warm's Avatar
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    No DKP, get your elitist gaming out of here.
    Bluntski - The Fallen Sons - Prestige 8 Mage

  6. #21
    Ascendant July13th's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warm View Post
    No DKP, get your elitist gaming out of here.
    I think you are confused about what the thread is really about.
    "I would love to get ideas pro and con on this suggestion (if you dont like the idea please explain why)."

  7. #22
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    It's an interesting idea, but I do worry about people who play less often. Considering that they have less time to play, they'd arguably need the gear -more- than someone who plays more often, thus who has a higher chance of getting that item later on anyway (by virtue of the volume of playtime they log).

    If additional options were added, such as <Break> or <Wardrobe>, it may help to balance the situation.

    The priority might look something like:
    <Need>
    <Break>
    <Wardrobe>
    <Greed>
    <Pass>

    Wardrobe would always bind the item to your account and only be available on stuff that you could put in your own Wardrobe (not weapons, or plate gear for Mages, etc), and Break would only be available if you possessed the correctly leveled skill to reduce the item into it's components, much like in WoW, and the item is instantly destroyed if you win a <Break> roll.
    Last edited by Morvick; 05-25-2011 at 06:25 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zinbik View Post
    I also made other enhancements to certain aspects of the game for various reasons.

  8. #23
    Sword of Telara corrin's Avatar
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    DKP system was the worst thing imaginable, especially when people in charge realized they could abuse it and hold it over your head to force you to do something.

    BTW, I do not appreciate receiving a message-spam to come to respond to this, especially with a receipt request attached to it. Do it again, and I will report you.

  9. #24
    Sword of Telara corrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Numtini View Post
    The NBG system is simply to save time. Everyone used NBG before it was added to any sort of automated loot distribution, but instead of just clicking need/greed, we used to have to stop and discuss whether or not someone needed something.

    It's not supposed to be a DKP system. DKP is for guilds and raiding and there are dozens of different systems.
    DKP rewards people without a life, and penalizes those that can't spend every waking hour doing instances and raids. It also allows GMs to coerce people into doing instances/raids or fear losing DKP. On top of that, it makes looting almost completely one sided. Instead of helping the group overall, it causes favorites, gearing one person up more than another, which can lead to many other problems. "You aren't geared enough for this new raid, so you'll have to sit it out/leave the guild." I've seen it happen.

    I guess the easiest way to say it is, it just causes too much corruption amongst guildies. It penalizes casual players. It's just an all-around bad system.

    NBG...great system, in theory. I think the timer on it needs to go away entirely, so groups have time to decide who needs it the most. On top of that, it works the best when gear is actually restricted to particular classes; when WoW implemented that, I danced a jig. No more pallies rolling on my priest gear! It seriously needs to happen in Rift.

    (Sorry for the double post, stupid edit timer...)

  10. #25
    Ascendant July13th's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
    While this is an interesting idea if has a few inherent flaws that could have a negative impact on the overall quality of life for newer players. This is a system that rewards two primary things: Time spent playing and overall activity during this time. While this is not a bad thing in and of itself, it would begin to slowly give new players an unfair environment for no other reason except for the simple fact that they are new.

    The only way a system like this would work, especially if you wanted to to carry over into raids and other aspects of the game: You would need it based on a zero-sum point distribution method complete with diminishing returns with points earned per activity over a spectrum of time within the week. This would ensure every player is reset back to 0 at the end of each week so there would be no long-term negative effect.

    If a new player joins the game and long time players in his guild had months and months of unspent points they would begin to lose interest in the game overall. This is an item-focused game where the collection of various items is the underlying reason for playing, period. If you take this aspect away from new players, you will quickly find a game with absolutely zero growth. It would kill itself over a very short period of time since it would punish new players for no reason at all.

    If all points were reset weekly it would give the system a fair environment at the beginning of every week, but then after a short while you would end up with players wanting to dump their surplus on vendor trash just so the points don't go to waste. it would basically be a little worse than the current system because it would allow players a consistent and stable way to hinder the progression of others for the sake of their own personal interest. Such as trying to slow the gearing process for other guilds so they can remain a top guild longer, et cetera.

    While point distribution works well for organized guilds, this is only because they can externally control all variables and account for new players to try and make it worth a new players effort to want to participate in their events. With a system under only the technical control of Trion, that would leave a lot of people out in the cold.

    This system sadly has too many social and mechanical drawbacks to make it a viable solution. The only way to make it fair also makes it pointless. Without a zero-sum mechanic on a short cooldown, it simply becomes economical inflation and will cause the game to fall under its own weight. An MMO is all about growth and change over time and this system promotes neither of those things.

    This is exactly why a revised Need Before Greed is a much better overall system. It is also easier to manage, and is pseudo-random making it as far as possible each and every roll. It is the only truly fair way to distribute pug loot without giving favor to one group of people and alienating another.

    The entire problem as a whole is a social problem and cannot be directly fixed with mechanical means without having some sort of large-scale negative impact on a player demographic on same level. This problem can be mitigated by more strict looting rules via mechanical means. However, the underlying problem has to be fixed socially. This means strict bans go out to ninjas - period. Make people think twice about it knowing they could very well be banned for doing it.

    While your idea is cool, it simply won't work outside of giving guilds an in-game DKP system.
    I liked the zero-sum idea. Thank you for your contribution. Every system will have some abusers unfortunately and my proposal may not be the correct one but I was trying to design something to prevent abuse as much as possible.

  11. #26
    Ascendant July13th's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morvick View Post
    It's an interesting idea, but I do worry about people who play less often. Considering that they have less time to play, they'd arguably need the gear -more- than someone who plays more often, thus who has a higher chance of getting that item later on anyway (by virtue of the volume of playtime they log).

    If additional options were added, such as <Break> or <Wardrobe>, it may help to balance the situation.

    The priority might look something like:
    <Need>
    <Break>
    <Wardrobe>
    <Greed>
    <Pass>

    Wardrobe would always bind the item to your account and only be available on stuff that you could put in your own Wardrobe (not weapons, or plate gear for Mages, etc), and Break would only be available if you possessed the correctly leveled skill to reduce the item into it's components, much like in WoW, and the item is instantly destroyed if you win a <Break> roll.
    Thank you for taking the time to respond. I was trying to find a fair and efficient loot distribution system and was hoping for feedback. I liked your new NBG priority proposals.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by corrin View Post
    DKP rewards people without a life, and penalizes those that can't spend every waking hour doing instances and raids. It also allows GMs to coerce people into doing instances/raids or fear losing DKP. On top of that, it makes looting almost completely one sided. Instead of helping the group overall, it causes favorites, gearing one person up more than another, which can lead to many other problems. "You aren't geared enough for this new raid, so you'll have to sit it out/leave the guild." I've seen it happen.

    I guess the easiest way to say it is, it just causes too much corruption amongst guildies. It penalizes casual players. It's just an all-around bad system.

    NBG...great system, in theory. I think the timer on it needs to go away entirely, so groups have time to decide who needs it the most. On top of that, it works the best when gear is actually restricted to particular classes; when WoW implemented that, I danced a jig. No more pallies rolling on my priest gear! It seriously needs to happen in Rift.

    (Sorry for the double post, stupid edit timer...)
    Thank you for the contribution. The system I was proposing would have been independent of guilds (guilds can use their own loot distribution rules). I liked your idea about removing the timer. Maybe have option for all loot to be rolled on at end of instance/rift for pugs. I agree myself for keeping armor type restricted to specific callings but there could still be the problem of a geared warrior rolling need on armor that another warrior really needs. I was trying to develop a system that could potentially prevent (or reduce) that.

  13. #28
    Plane Touched Warm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by July13th View Post
    I think you are confused about what the thread is really about.
    "I would love to get ideas pro and con on this suggestion (if you dont like the idea please explain why)."
    Sorry, Mr. Smug, if you can't summarize my post.

    Pros: none
    Cons: Favors gaming "elitists" who can play all day. If you are in a dungeon run you deserve rolls on all bosses that are killed while you are there.
    Last edited by Warm; 05-25-2011 at 11:02 PM.
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  14. #29
    Champion of Telara Acesfool's Avatar
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    I was once in a WoW guild that used no form of DKP system. The result was that several players only showed up for raids. They never once contributed anything as far as materials for flasks, enchants or food. They never ran any instances to help get people geared. But they'd sure as hell roll for that raid gear. And at the end of the night they were logged off before the raid leader could say "we're done for the night". So I have a hard time seeing those who want a DKP system as the "smug" ones.

    As for dungeon loot. I can't see a DKP system working. As someone else suggested, getting rid of the timer would be good. We should also be able to trade gear to someone who is in the group and was eligible to roll on it, for those times when accidents happen.

  15. #30
    Plane Touched Warm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acesfool View Post
    I was once in a WoW guild that used no form of DKP system. The result was that several players only showed up for raids. They never once contributed anything as far as materials for flasks, enchants or food. They never ran any instances to help get people geared. But they'd sure as hell roll for that raid gear. And at the end of the night they were logged off before the raid leader could say "we're done for the night". So I have a hard time seeing those who want a DKP system as the "smug" ones.

    As for dungeon loot. I can't see a DKP system working. As someone else suggested, getting rid of the timer would be good. We should also be able to trade gear to someone who is in the group and was eligible to roll on it, for those times when accidents happen.
    Sounds like you did not have a very good guild community then, I played WoW before BC and ran all the 40 mans without DKP. Never did we have an issue. DKP only further promotes what you just said, people only show up for raids just so they can get the DKP but won't help elsewhere. DKP promotes favoritism in raids.
    Last edited by Warm; 05-26-2011 at 04:46 AM.
    Bluntski - The Fallen Sons - Prestige 8 Mage

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