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Thread: Distinguishing Rift's endgame from the dungeon grinders

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    Default Distinguishing Rift's endgame from the dungeon grinders

    I started this as a reply in another thread, but I feel it deserves its own space. Basically, the biggest criticism of Rift to date is that the endgame is a clone of WoW without arenas. To a certain degree, this is undeniable, and quite expected. People want what's familiar to them. Unfortunately, there can only be so many similarities -- otherwise, people begin to ask "hey, why'd I leave?"

    So, what I'd like to share here is a suggestion by which Rift can distinguish itself from WoW and the other dungeon grinders (EQ, EQ2, AoC, etc), by making its fantastic public quest system more prominent in its endgame. I think the gaming magazines are right, this game really does have the best implementation ever of public quests in an MMO. Well, why not put that system to use?

    I'm suggesting these specific things to retain existing players, attract new players, and break away from "dungeon grind" games, while simultaneously making the endgame match the game that one plays while leveling up.

    1.) Make level 50 Major rifts drop comparable loot, in comparable quantities, to AP and CC normal modes. You fight level 50 elites, you should get a shot at blues. It's just that simple.
    2.) Make level 50 Expert rifts easily attainable using level 50 Major rift drops. This means:
    a. Buff the drop rate of Malformed Souls, in both Major rifts and invasions, significantly beyond even current levels (which are still bad).
    b. Make each Expert boss drop at least one Malformed Soul.
    c. Allow Malformed Souls to be purchased with Planarite -- let's say, 1,000 apiece. 2,000. Whatever. Right now most level 50s have nothing to spend Planarite on.
    3.) Make level 50 Raid rifts easily attainable using level 50 Expert rift drops. This means buffing the drop rate of Corrupted Souls significantly beyond even current levels (which are still bad).
    a. Buff the drop rate of Corrupted Souls, in both Expert rifts and major invasions, significantly beyond even current levels (which are still bad).
    b. Make each t2 Expert boss have a significant chance (let's say 33%) to drop a Corrupted Soul.
    c. Allow Corrupted Souls to be purchased using Malformed Souls -- let's say at a rate of 2:1, consistent with raid rift group size : expert rift group size ratio.
    4.) Do more with invasions to require Level 50 involvement at all levels, including level 50 Expert and Raid difficulty invasion bosses.
    a. Allow invasions in any low level zone to be stopped at any point (with appropriate loot for all participants) by defeating a level 50 version of the invasion boss, which requires a level 50 Ascended power to summon.
    --Add a level 50 Ascended power, Planar Challenge or something like that, which uses 1 Planar Charge. Ability would be channeled and only work in a zone that is under invasion. Planar Charge is expended, and ability is completed, when enough level 50 players use it to spawn the level 50 version of the zone boss. The boss then appears near one character who was channeling the Planar Challenge (in other words, players must group up to do this).
    --Minor invasions would generate an Expert level boss, tuned for 10 players in t1 gear. Let's say that it'd take 10 level 50 players using their Ascended power to summon it. Award 10 Plaques for the first one defeated each day, and a small # (1-2) for additional ones defeated each day.
    --Major invasions would generate a Raid level boss, tuned for 10 players in t2 gear. Let's say that it'd take 10 level 50 players using their Ascended power to summon it. Award 20 Plaques for the first one defeated each day, and a smaller # (4-8) for additional ones defeated each day.
    b. Allow invasions in any maximum level zone to be stopped at any point by summoning a Raid level boss (i.e. tuned for 10 players in raid ready gear). Requires 10 level 50 players using their Ascended power to summon it. Award 20 Plaques for the first one defeated each day, and a smaller # (4-8) for additional ones defeated each day.
    c. All level 50 Expert and Raid versions of invasion bosses award tier-appropriate loot.
    5.) Add PVP invasions on PVP realms, where the other side can join in. Fight alongside your side's heroes to stake your claim to your territory.
    a. Maybe add a limited version on PVE realms, where players can't fight against each other quite so easily.

    WHAT THIS WOULD DO
    1.) This frees Trion from having to come up with more creative ways to gear players up for Expert dungeons. Allows a nice, clean path of gear progression at maximum level that isn't a dungeon or reputation grind.
    2.) This one brings rifts back into the endgame, giving everyone, including casuals, a way to participate.
    3.) This one further incorporates rift content into the endgame. Again, even casuals could do a raid rift if they had the gear to hack it.
    4.) Encourages participation in invasions worldwide. People help out in lowbie zones again, because they have real incentive to help out. Encourages social cooperation on a level that dungeon grinders cannot even imagine.
    5.) Gives PVP players the RVR they've been demanding, in a way that emphasizes the game structure of Rift, and doesn't get ridiculous like WAR.

    In conclusion: Seriously, screw dungeons and screw reputations. This game has the framework to move beyond tired dungeon grinds completely. If you want to draw the players in, then do that. You've already got the next generation class system...now make the next generation endgame. You're halfway there as it is!
    Last edited by Ampere; 04-20-2011 at 11:42 PM.
    Kashta, 50 Rogue / Gwythiant, 41 Cleric / Ampere, 37 Mage

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ampere View Post
    I started this as a reply in another thread, but I feel it deserves its own space. Basically, the biggest criticism of Rift to date is that the endgame is a clone of WoW without arenas. To a certain degree, this is undeniable, and quite expected. People want what's familiar to them. Unfortunately, there can only be so many similarities -- otherwise, people begin to ask "hey, why'd I leave?"

    So, what I'd like to share here is a suggestion by which Rift can distinguish itself from WoW and the other dungeon grinders (EQ, EQ2, AoC, etc), by making its fantastic public quest system more prominent in its endgame. I think the gaming magazines are right, this game really does have the best implementation ever of public quests in an MMO. Well, why not put that system to use?

    I'm suggesting these specific things to retain existing players, attract new players, and break away from "dungeon grind" games, while simultaneously making the endgame match the game that one plays while leveling up.

    1.) Make level 50 Major rifts drop comparable loot, in comparable quantities, to AP and CC normal modes. You fight level 50 elites, you should get a shot at blues. It's just that simple.
    2.) Make level 50 Expert rifts easily attainable using level 50 Major rift drops. This means:
    a. Buff the drop rate of Malformed Souls, in both Major rifts and invasions, significantly beyond even current levels (which are still bad).
    b. Make each Expert boss drop at least one Malformed Soul.
    c. Allow Malformed Souls to be purchased with Planarite -- let's say, 1,000 apiece. 2,000. Whatever. Right now most level 50s have nothing to spend Planarite on.
    3.) Make level 50 Raid rifts easily attainable using level 50 Expert rift drops. This means buffing the drop rate of Corrupted Souls significantly beyond even current levels (which are still bad).
    a. Buff the drop rate of Corrupted Souls, in both Expert rifts and major invasions, significantly beyond even current levels (which are still bad).
    b. Make each t2 Expert boss have a significant chance (let's say 33%) to drop a Corrupted Soul.
    c. Allow Corrupted Souls to be purchased using Malformed Souls -- let's say at a rate of 2:1, consistent with raid rift group size : expert rift group size ratio.
    4.) Do more with invasions to require Level 50 involvement at all levels, including level 50 Expert and Raid difficulty invasion bosses.
    a. Allow invasions in any low level zone to be stopped at any point (with appropriate loot for all participants) by defeating a level 50 version of the invasion boss, which requires a level 50 Ascended power to summon.
    --Add a level 50 Ascended power, Planar Challenge or something like that, which uses 1 Planar Charge. Ability would be channeled and only work in a zone that is under invasion. Planar Charge is expended, and ability is completed, when enough level 50 players use it to spawn the level 50 version of the zone boss. The boss then appears near one character who was channeling the Planar Challenge (in other words, players must group up to do this).
    --Minor invasions would generate an Expert level boss, tuned for 10 players in t1 gear. Let's say that it'd take 10 level 50 players using their Ascended power to summon it. Award 10 Plaques for the first one defeated each day, and a small # (1-2) for additional ones defeated each day.
    --Major invasions would generate a Raid level boss, tuned for 10 players in t2 gear. Let's say that it'd take 10 level 50 players using their Ascended power to summon it. Award 20 Plaques for the first one defeated each day, and a smaller # (4-8) for additional ones defeated each day.
    b. Allow invasions in any maximum level zone to be stopped at any point by summoning a Raid level boss (i.e. tuned for 10 players in raid ready gear). Requires 10 level 50 players using their Ascended power to summon it. Award 20 Plaques for the first one defeated each day, and a smaller # (4-8) for additional ones defeated each day.
    c. All level 50 Expert and Raid versions of invasion bosses award tier-appropriate loot.
    5.) Add PVP invasions on PVP realms, where the other side can join in. Fight alongside your side's heroes to stake your claim to your territory.
    a. Maybe add a limited version on PVE realms, where players can't fight against each other quite so easily.

    WHAT THIS WOULD DO
    1.) This frees Trion from having to come up with more creative ways to gear players up for Expert dungeons. Allows a nice, clean path of gear progression at maximum level that isn't a dungeon or reputation grind.
    2.) This one brings rifts back into the endgame, giving everyone, including casuals, a way to participate.
    3.) This one further incorporates rift content into the endgame. Again, even casuals could do a raid rift if they had the gear to hack it.
    4.) Encourages participation in invasions worldwide. People help out in lowbie zones again, because they have real incentive to help out. Encourages social cooperation on a level that dungeon grinders cannot even imagine.
    5.) Gives PVP players the RVR they've been demanding, in a way that emphasizes the game structure of Rift, and doesn't get ridiculous like WAR.

    In conclusion: Seriously, screw dungeons and screw reputations. This game has the framework to move beyond tired dungeon grinds completely. If you want to draw the players in, then do that. You've already got the next generation class system...now make the next generation endgame. You're halfway there as it is!
    Though I fear you will get the epeen responce of "hello Rift welfare epic system" it is a good idea for the casual players to be rewarded for there play, however it will have the unintended effect of making the more dedicated players feel there accomplishments are less significant. the PVE community does not take well to having there system of epeen envy disrupted when someone else can walk up and say "yup and tommorow I am going to get this other peace you have, and for half the time and effort.....yay I am just as cool as the guy who spent 8 6 hour raids getting his stuff". It is a good idea but it leads to more handouts and that my friend is what is wrong with another community today!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DArksayian View Post
    Though I fear you will get the epeen responce of "hello Rift welfare epic system" it is a good idea for the casual players to be rewarded for there play, however it will have the unintended effect of making the more dedicated players feel there accomplishments are less significant. the PVE community does not take well to having there system of epeen envy disrupted when someone else can walk up and say "yup and tommorow I am going to get this other peace you have, and for half the time and effort.....yay I am just as cool as the guy who spent 8 6 hour raids getting his stuff". It is a good idea but it leads to more handouts and that my friend is what is wrong with another community today!
    There are a lot of knobs that can be tweaked to increase time commitment (or difficulty). Increase the planarite per Malformed Soul, make it so each 10 man "Rift Challenge" boss only drops 1 blue and perhaps 1 epic. I'm not suggesting a rigid system, just a loosely sketched framework. The point is to create a system that doesn't require dungeon or reputation grinds, and can be done by players with only a couple consecutive hours free (even if it takes similar amounts of time to expert dungeons to obtain an upgrade, it's not in 3-4 hour chunks).

    Also, I remind you, casuals are the overwhelming majority of paying subscribers. Leave them out in the cold, they go play other games. Both Cataclysm and Vanguard decided to cater to hardcore players only, brick-walling casuals. One has no developers left, one has lost at least 25% of its active subscribers since December (compare Warcraft Realms census data over time; active characters dropped 20% in March *alone*). It's like developers just don't get that catering a game to the most hardcore 1% makes the other 99% leave.
    Last edited by Ampere; 04-21-2011 at 12:41 AM.
    Kashta, 50 Rogue / Gwythiant, 41 Cleric / Ampere, 37 Mage

  4. #4
    Shield of Telara Aastarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ampere View Post
    I started this as a reply in another thread, but I feel it deserves its own space. Basically, the biggest criticism of Rift to date is that the endgame is a clone of WoW without arenas. To a certain degree, this is undeniable, and quite expected. People want what's familiar to them. Unfortunately, there can only be so many similarities -- otherwise, people begin to ask "hey, why'd I leave?"

    So, what I'd like to share here is a suggestion by which Rift can distinguish itself from WoW and the other dungeon grinders (EQ, EQ2, AoC, etc), by making its fantastic public quest system more prominent in its endgame. I think the gaming magazines are right, this game really does have the best implementation ever of public quests in an MMO. Well, why not put that system to use?

    I'm suggesting these specific things to retain existing players, attract new players, and break away from "dungeon grind" games, while simultaneously making the endgame match the game that one plays while leveling up.

    1.) Make level 50 Major rifts drop comparable loot, in comparable quantities, to AP and CC normal modes. You fight level 50 elites, you should get a shot at blues. It's just that simple.
    2.) Make level 50 Expert rifts easily attainable using level 50 Major rift drops. This means:
    a. Buff the drop rate of Malformed Souls, in both Major rifts and invasions, significantly beyond even current levels (which are still bad).
    b. Make each Expert boss drop at least one Malformed Soul.
    c. Allow Malformed Souls to be purchased with Planarite -- let's say, 1,000 apiece. 2,000. Whatever. Right now most level 50s have nothing to spend Planarite on.
    3.) Make level 50 Raid rifts easily attainable using level 50 Expert rift drops. This means buffing the drop rate of Corrupted Souls significantly beyond even current levels (which are still bad).
    a. Buff the drop rate of Corrupted Souls, in both Expert rifts and major invasions, significantly beyond even current levels (which are still bad).
    b. Make each t2 Expert boss have a significant chance (let's say 33%) to drop a Corrupted Soul.
    c. Allow Corrupted Souls to be purchased using Malformed Souls -- let's say at a rate of 2:1, consistent with raid rift group size : expert rift group size ratio.
    4.) Do more with invasions to require Level 50 involvement at all levels, including level 50 Expert and Raid difficulty invasion bosses.
    a. Allow invasions in any low level zone to be stopped at any point (with appropriate loot for all participants) by defeating a level 50 version of the invasion boss, which requires a level 50 Ascended power to summon.
    --Add a level 50 Ascended power, Planar Challenge or something like that, which uses 1 Planar Charge. Ability would be channeled and only work in a zone that is under invasion. Planar Charge is expended, and ability is completed, when enough level 50 players use it to spawn the level 50 version of the zone boss. The boss then appears near one character who was channeling the Planar Challenge (in other words, players must group up to do this).
    --Minor invasions would generate an Expert level boss, tuned for 10 players in t1 gear. Let's say that it'd take 10 level 50 players using their Ascended power to summon it. Award 10 Plaques for the first one defeated each day, and a small # (1-2) for additional ones defeated each day.
    --Major invasions would generate a Raid level boss, tuned for 10 players in t2 gear. Let's say that it'd take 10 level 50 players using their Ascended power to summon it. Award 20 Plaques for the first one defeated each day, and a smaller # (4-8) for additional ones defeated each day.
    b. Allow invasions in any maximum level zone to be stopped at any point by summoning a Raid level boss (i.e. tuned for 10 players in raid ready gear). Requires 10 level 50 players using their Ascended power to summon it. Award 20 Plaques for the first one defeated each day, and a smaller # (4-8) for additional ones defeated each day.
    c. All level 50 Expert and Raid versions of invasion bosses award tier-appropriate loot.
    5.) Add PVP invasions on PVP realms, where the other side can join in. Fight alongside your side's heroes to stake your claim to your territory.
    a. Maybe add a limited version on PVE realms, where players can't fight against each other quite so easily.

    WHAT THIS WOULD DO
    1.) This frees Trion from having to come up with more creative ways to gear players up for Expert dungeons. Allows a nice, clean path of gear progression at maximum level that isn't a dungeon or reputation grind.
    2.) This one brings rifts back into the endgame, giving everyone, including casuals, a way to participate.
    3.) This one further incorporates rift content into the endgame. Again, even casuals could do a raid rift if they had the gear to hack it.
    4.) Encourages participation in invasions worldwide. People help out in lowbie zones again, because they have real incentive to help out. Encourages social cooperation on a level that dungeon grinders cannot even imagine.
    5.) Gives PVP players the RVR they've been demanding, in a way that emphasizes the game structure of Rift, and doesn't get ridiculous like WAR.

    In conclusion: Seriously, screw dungeons and screw reputations. This game has the framework to move beyond tired dungeon grinds completely. If you want to draw the players in, then do that. You've already got the next generation class system...now make the next generation endgame. You're halfway there as it is!
    Overall the general idea is pretty good but I'd make one change and that would then it roll on all server types.

    Add a new zone to the map for these "new rifts" and make it flag (even on PvE servers) you PvP. Then may well get the best of all worlds as you're effectively well on your way to oRvR with a real meaning for everyone.
    Last edited by Aastarius; 04-21-2011 at 12:46 AM.
    I do not suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aastarius View Post
    Overall the general idea is pretty good but I'd make one change and that would then it roll on all server types.

    Add a new zone to the map for these "new rifts" and make it flag (even on PvE servers) you PvP. Then may well get the best of all worlds as you're effectively well on your way to oRvR with a real meaning for everyone.
    Sure, that's possible. Like I said, the details should be hammered out by people who know more about game development than you or I. If there was one tl;dr version of my post, it'd be to suggest implementin an alternate means of endgame progression that highlights what Rift is good at (public quests) and de-emphasizes stuff that other games have (dungeons). Where they stick the PVP public quests, I don't care...but they need to implement them someplace.
    Kashta, 50 Rogue / Gwythiant, 41 Cleric / Ampere, 37 Mage

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