Raids will no longer have 10-man versions

[Galibier]

I edited out my reaction to what was posted. There is a definite issue and the devs definitely know this is an issue they can not brush under the rug.

No they haven't brushed it under the rug. Here AGAIN is the clarification and continued comment people are saying doesn't exist. Posted yesterday by Zor..

In our original design we also preferred to have both available. But at least for now we are moving all instanced Raids to be tuned for 20-players. We may add the 10-man versions back in post-launch but I'm not making any promises. This is has not been a quick decision. We have been discussing this option for awhile. Below is the "short version" of some of the main reasons we changed our design.

1. We're providing significantly more raid content then we originally scoped. This has allowed us to provide parties of both sizes content that is uniquely tailored to them.

2. We took a close look at the feedback and questions we received from our player-base AND took a very close look at "other-game(s)" that provided content with multiple raid sizes. Our general consensus is that there can be significant negative effects on the players and guilds as they try to both maximize their gear acquisition and straddle the two different raid-sizes.

3. Making this change streamlines our design process. There is a significant time investment in trying to balance difficulty and rewards to the two raid sizes. What we didn't want was there to be an "easier path" to progression. We knew this ahead of time and were prepared for it. But now this frees up our resources to provide a higher-quality experience and more content overall... or as I like call it "MoreBetter".

For those of you in smaller guilds we totally understand your concerns. We have several designers on the instance team that play in 10-man guilds. But we do hope that you can participate in the 20-man content either by joining forces with another small guild or perhaps growing the size of your own. Even if you don't there will still be a lot of 10-man content to enjoy throughout Rift.

claiming they are brushing it under the rug is just further evidence that people only want "clarification" that they want to hear and that no other clarification from the devs will suit them.

[Dasty]

We will lose a few smaller guilds who do not want to put any effort into recruiting more, either because they are lazy, or because they wanted to keep some sort of Elite 10 man raiding guild.

However what we will gain is more concentrated focus by the dev teams on higher level content down the line.

Casuals do have the majority in every MMO, however 95% of those casual players are in guilds larger than 25+. So its a mute point saying casual players will lose out, solo yes, smaller guilds not wanting to change or put the effort in yes.

However what we gain outweighs the loss of a few players and a few smaller guilds.

20 Man fine bring it on!!

I thought I had said basically everything I had to say in this post, but this one deserves a response.

I have absolutely no idea whether "95% of those casual players are in guilds larger than 25+". Frankly, neither do you.

Bottom line: Trion advertised that X and Y 10 man content would be available to the player base, where X = 10 Man Raid Rifts and Y = 10 Man Instanced Raids.

They have now removed Y.

People such as myself are disappointed with the decision to remove Y. Is it a deal-breaker? For me the answer is..."We'll see." I'm interested enought in the 5 man content that I won't mind leveling up.

But at least have the intellectual honesty and integrity not to pull numbers out of thin air. Neither of us know the impact it will have on overall subscription rates. I can tell you it will probably encourage 3 to 4 of my friends not to subcribe. Anecdotal? You bet. But your numbers are no better.

[Kojiden]

I'm a bit saddened by this as well. The guild I'm in is going to be relatively small. But I'll manage. I don't mind pugging but it could become an issue when it comes to things like ventrilo. For instance a small guild may have ventrilo up but the rest of the pug people can't hear because the small guild doesn't want to give random people access to their vent server.

[Puremallace]

No they haven't brushed it under the rug. Here AGAIN is the clarification and continued comment people are saying doesn't exist. Posted yesterday by Zor..



claiming they are brushing it under the rug is just further evidence that people only want "clarification" that they want to hear and that no other clarification from the devs will suit them.

oh no that resulted when I went epic nerd rage in that other thread. This was kept secret for 3 weeks and no Beta testers were told, even though ALOT of people had bought the game.

I doubt they planned on releasing this information until people had already made it to end game. They need to definitely improve their communication and finding this out through a random podcast is making some people rage.

Now atleast people have the option to make it work or go straight EMO and unsub.

[Galibier]

A few smaller guilds? Theres more than "a few smaller guilds" in this thread alone, and not everyone who has played beta even visits these forums. There are people playing beta who dont even know that 10 mans wont be in, and some of them may even fall into the category of "smaller guild".

Think big picture here bud. You're not even talking about losing a sub, you're talking about losing entire guilds. Lets assume that the small raiding guilds have at least 10 people. If it were true, what you say about "only losing a few smaller guilds." Thats 30 subs and pre-orders minimum. If 10 of these small guilds decide not to sub because of this change, thats 300. You see where Im going with this?

Losing potential subs and pre-orders this way hurts. Its one thing to see a person create a QQ post about something and announce that hes canceling, and quite another when entire guilds cancel. Even if they are small.

Come on saying there are few smaller guilds OR saying that more than a few posted here is all conjecture. Does anyone know. NOPE. All we can do is talk to our personal preference. When you start pulling numbers out of your butt to support your argument you place yourself in a weak position from the jump. This is debating 101.

Lets stick to what we know. Which is what we want and or desire and stop talking about some wider community that none of us can quantify.

[Callipygous]

oh no that resulted when I went epic nerd rage in that other thread. This was kept secret for 3 weeks and no Beta testers were told, even though ALOT of people had bought the game.

I doubt they planned on releasing this information until people had already made it to end game. They need to definitely improve their communication and finding this out through a random podcast is making some people rage.

The game is in beta everything is subject to change read the EULA

[Lynnius]

Yes we wont know the true affect of this until later down the line, however by using this system rather than the normal SPIKE at launch then few months later subs start to drop due to lower quality content this sytem will IMO give the quality content they need to help slowly build up their subscriptions over time.

I am sure they have done their homework on this.

[Galibier]

oh no that resulted when I went epic nerd rage in that other thread. This was kept secret for 3 weeks and no Beta testers were told, even though ALOT of people had bought the game.

I doubt they planned on releasing this information until people had already made it to end game. They need to definitely improve their communication and finding this out through a random podcast is making some people rage.

Hmmm so the pod cast that started this all resulted in your epic nerd rage in the other thread that happened AFTER the pod cast. Damn they are prophets. This post was a result of all of the people who were upset with what was said. Your sense of self importance clearly knows no bounds. This post is the EXACT same stuff that was mentioned in the pod cast, its was nothing new. Anyone who actually listened to the original pod cast would be able to tell you what this post said BEFORE it was posted. How can anyone with even the smallest contact with reality say that it was meant to be concealed when it was released in a pod cast? You aren't naive enough to think that the questions in a pod cast like the one on Monday doesn't have the questions vetted before hand are you?

That guy went into that interview knowing what he was going to be asked. Unless its a pod cast like ZAM does on occassion where fans can log in and ask questions, most are like this. Its all canned responses to questions known in advance. To a prescheduled podcast hardly random. Thats like saying the President said he was raising taxes in a random prescheduled press conference. /facepalm

They let the information out now so that they did not have a PR disaster after launch with all the "bait and switch" BS that comes with it. The people at Trion are pretty pro at this. The only problem you have with their communication is that they don't tell you what you want to hear.

[Puremallace]

Hmmm so the pod cast that started this all resulted in your epic nerd rage in the other thread that happened AFTER the pod cast. Damn they are prophets. This post was a result of all of the people who were upset with what was said. This post is the EXACT same stuff that was mentioned in the pod cast, its was nothing new. Anyone who actually listened to the original pod cast would be able to tell you what this post said BEFORE it was posted. How can anyone with even the smallest contact with reality say that it was meant to be concealed when it was released in a pod cast? You aren't naive enough to think that the questions in a pod cast like the one on Monday doesn't have the questions vetted before hand are you?

That guy went into that interview knowing what he was going to be asked. Unless its a pod cast like ZAM does on occassion where fans can log in and ask questions, most are like this. Its all canned responses to questions known in advance.

What I want to know is why was it announced by a dev? If they had pre-planned to announce it them why did they have to make that little list and post it in a back water thread on the Beta forums?

This was advertised as a major part of the game and now it is gone and I still have to see an official announcement from Trion. What about the people who do not read the forums? What about 10 man guilds who will pick the game up on the 24th under the impression they have 10man instanced raid content, but do not anymore?

There is going too be even more nerd rage come release date they do not need and it will give the game bad press.

If this was announced then why am I not posting in Abigales thread that she started that is stickies. it seems like they are hoping that we just forget about it and let this thread die.

[Negai]

Come on saying there are few smaller guilds OR saying that more than a few posted here is all conjecture. Does anyone know. NOPE. All we can do is talk to our personal preference. When you start pulling numbers out of your butt to support your argument you place yourself in a weak position from the jump. This is debating 101.

Lets stick to what we know. Which is what we want and or desire and stop talking about some wider community that none of us can quantify.

Pulling numbers out of my butt? Hardly. More than 3 people have stated that this is a deal breaker for their guilds on the first two pages. As far as my other numbers, I was simply making a point by demonstrating how it would scale.

As far as my argument is concerned, Its a point that cant be argued quite frankly. Losing entire guilds due to this change is a bad thing. If you can somehow view it as a good thing, please loan me your rose tinted glasses. Losing any potential customer is bad, let alone entire groups of customers. Thats my point.

[Zooks]

They mishandled how they let this news get to the community. No doubt about that.

[Trav1s]

My only issue with this announcement is the timing. Obviously they took a long hard look at where they were developmentally and made this choice. If they could meet the standard they were shooting for they would no doubt have 10 mans in the game at launch. No game company in there right minds would want to take out any content that they had promoted being in a game a month before it's release. I wish this announcement had come sooner. If it had, this type of Chicken Little behavior would have passed by now.

It reminds me a lot of what happened with WAR going into open beta. The week before they went into open beta they announced that instead of having 3 capital cities involved in realm v realm they would only have one on each side. The backlash from this sucked and turned a ton of player's off.

With an enormous amount of exposure hitting this game i the next week it sucks that new player's coming into this experience are going to get hit in the face with this if they look at these forums, which they will. Had this been axed a while back I am not sure if it would have had as big of an impact.

Let's face it though, with MMO's, you have a certain standard you have to match in terms of content that is featured. Coming from a week stint in Dc Universe to playing in last beta this game is leaps and bounds ahead of where DCUO is now. To poke the dead horse a bit, they haven't ruled 10 mans out completely. Most games, at launch don't/didn't have raids ready at all. Outside of WOW, how many people played other MMO's where they actually got to do the top tier raids. When you did, was it rewarding?

Quality over quantity is huge. Thus far there is a good bit of quality in this game at every level. You can nit pick something in every game if you like. Content will no doubt come out that will expand the game. As long as, they don't do what Blizzard did and fire all the Devs shortly after release.

Again I wish they had made this announcement sooner then they did. Trion making this choice will make the game better over the long haul. Based on the buzz they will have no shortage of player's at release. I would venture to say most of the player's that say they won't play now are actually full of it. Those that don't buy the game and play at release will be back. They know they won't get a new expansion for that other game for another 3 years or so. By that time this game will have more then a firm foothold in the genre.

[Dasty]

The only problem you have with their communication is that they don't tell you what you want to hear.

Correct. We were told X and Y 10 man content would be offered. They removed one half of the equation. A certain percentage (who knows how much) is upset by this change and are letting Trion know this fact.

I have to say I find this whole debate about whether 10 vs. 20 man raids is more epic or one version is harder than the other to be rather a moot point.

Simply put, they advertised a particular feature as being available to lure in customers and then removed it. We can debate the meaning of "initially" or "but no promises" until the cows come home, it's rather moot.

I persuaded 6 of my friends from WoW to come over and try Beta. They loved it! As did I. We're on the verge of persuading 5 others to join us as well. But part of the lure was the tantalizing prospect of interesting 10-Man content, and we're skeptical that Rift events can provide that. When the content becomes boring and uninteresting...we leave.

[Vanwaros]

Thread: Kiiiilll meeeee

[Lynnius]

Pulling numbers out of my butt? Hardly. More than 3 people have stated that this is a deal breaker for their guilds on the first two pages. As far as my other numbers, I was simply making a point by demonstrating how it would scale.

As far as my argument is concerned, Its a point that cant be argued quite frankly. Losing entire guilds due to this change is a bad thing. If you can somehow view it as a good thing, please loan me your rose tinted glasses. Losing any potential customer is bad, let alone entire groups of customers. Thats my point.

Short term loss vs (Hopefully) a long term gain, this is why the made the decision.

Also IMO those smaller guilds that are saying they will all cancel their subs or preorders, lets be honest either its complete BS or they had no intention of subbing in the first place.

So yes you can count how many are "STATING" they will cancel, however that wont be the case. Many will say but not do as overall they like the game.

I mean in the beta forums for example PureMallace stated he could not now Justify paying for this game due to this, then he says he is actually going to play as PVP is more of his thing.

Very few will actually cancel, just a good way of attention seeking ala Finder and PureMallace.