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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: DEVS- nerf particles for the disabled?

  1. #31
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    This probably wasn't a useful or constructive post either.
    Last edited by Refuge; 10-10-2018 at 03:02 PM.
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  2. #32
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    There is no raid mechanic in current content that I am aware of that relies on z-axis navigation. Unless you call getting flung in the air by the high priest "navigation".

    So, this little particle quest is quite the outlier in terms of raiding mechanics for a raid weapon.

    Personally, I enjoy doing it. My wife, however, does not because of her arthritis. Way too much panning around while clicking makes it really rough for some people. So I sat down at her PC and did hers for her. Quick, call the FBI.

    Since players aren't learning any skills specifically related to current raid mechanics, it is completely understandable that people who have no interest in this sort of puzzle don't really want to beat their heads against a wall for just a one-off thing especially if they have physical impairments making it overly difficult.

    To Brasse or whoever it may concern:
    It would be great if there was someone on the CS team specifically that players with disabilities could approach to handle these things privately - a liaison or what have you. If there is already please excuse my ignorance and share that information with everyone who may be interested. Thank you!
    Last edited by Faeraday; 10-10-2018 at 07:50 AM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faeraday View Post
    There is no raid mechanic in current content that I am aware of that relies on z-axis navigation. Unless you call getting flung in the air by the high priest "navigation".

    So, this little particle quest is quite the outlier in terms of raiding mechanics for a raid weapon.

    Personally, I enjoy doing it. My wife, however, does not because of her arthritis. Way too much panning around while clicking makes it really rough for some people. So I sat down at her PC and did hers for her. Quick, call the FBI.

    Since players aren't learning any skills specifically related to current raid mechanics, it is completely understandable that people who have no interest in this sort of puzzle don't really want to beat their heads against a wall for just a one-off thing especially if they have physical impairments making it overly difficult.

    To Brasse or whoever it may concern:
    It would be great if there was someone on the CS team specifically that players with disabilities could approach to handle these sort of things privately - a sort of liaison or what have you. If there is already please excuse my ignorance and share that information with everyone who may be interested. Thank you!
    It's true that there's no raid that involves flying (do you want an encounter like WoW's Malygos, or a dungeon like WoW's Oculus, which most people hated?), but that doesn't mean "players aren't learning any skills specifically related to current raid mechanics." It's training for planning a route through good zones while avoiding bad zones, the lessons for which can certainly translate to a 2D scenario.

    I don't think Trion would be interested in breaking the rules of the game like this, even for the disabled, as it would open a can of worms that would cause more problems than it would solve.

  4. #34
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    No, it really isn't. Because that z-axis element is constantly present whereas on a 2D plane it is not.

    Not really interested in other games, they are not applicable here.

    What rules are being broken specifically?

    It breaks my heart to see there are a lot of people who are indifferent or callous to those less able. We are all going to stay young and live forever - I know.

    Perhaps a different viewpoint to consider, is that for some people with serious problems, just life in general is raised from Normal to Expert. For some of them it goes up to Master, or even Intrepid. Games like this provide an escape from a lot of that, for a lot of people, most of the time until little issues like this come up.

    It's my understanding that most of these encounters are designed around people on Normal, and if the CS team sees fit to "nerf" the IRL difficulty of certain players who can demonstrate a need then that would be awesome imo.

    They've already nerfed BoS twice for the Normals.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faeraday View Post
    They've already nerfed BoS twice for the Normals.
    They never nerfed BoS. BoS is more difficult now than it was in before souls nerf. These 2 small hp nerfs are smaller than dps nerf before that.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faeraday View Post
    No, it really isn't. Because that z-axis element is constantly present whereas on a 2D plane it is not.

    Not really interested in other games, they are not applicable here.

    What rules are being broken specifically?

    It breaks my heart to see there are a lot of people who are indifferent or callous to those less able. We are all going to stay young and live forever - I know.

    Perhaps a different viewpoint to consider, is that for some people with serious problems, just life in general is raised from Normal to Expert. For some of them it goes up to Master, or even Intrepid. Games like this provide an escape from a lot of that, for a lot of people, most of the time until little issues like this come up.

    It's my understanding that most of these encounters are designed around people on Normal, and if the CS team sees fit to "nerf" the IRL difficulty of certain players who can demonstrate a need then that would be awesome imo.

    They've already nerfed BoS twice for the Normals.
    Yes, it really is. The 3D aspect doesn't disqualify it from being useful. The lesson taught by that quest is that you should avoid bad stuff, even if it lies directly between you and good stuff, which is key in raids. One difference doesn't invalidate the whole thing. If it was 2D, would you still say that it was useless for raiders just because it doesn't have enemies or require ten people to complete?

    The rule being broken is "complete a task to get a reward." Do you really think it would be wise for Trion to start verifying disabilities (with a doctor's note? Will we have to sign HIPPA disclosures? How about undiagnosed disabilities? etc.) and determining which tasks are impossible for each one? You'd not only have people with arthritis wanting to get out of particles, but also people with social anxiety wanting to get out of raids, people with claustrophobia wanting to get out of dungeons, and so on. That doesn't even take into account the manpower it would take to handle all this, which Trion's Rift team obviously doesn't have.

    And I'm going to tell you the same thing I told Hellishly: "You don't know me. You don't know what's easy or difficult for me, and why." Don't assume that anyone who doesn't think video game rewards need to be handed out to the disabled isn't disabled, or is "indifferent or callous."

  7. #37
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    It is completely NOT useful. It would be like asking someone to learn how to do their taxes while skiing - a totally unnecessary complication if the intent is to teach a basic task such as, you know, your taxes. It just seems like you are really trying to stretch to make this puzzle somehow relevant to raiding and it is not. Feel free to disagree.

    Thank you for clarifying that people who have disabilities are solely looking for ways to "get out of" things. Like getting out of having to do raids, or being in dungeons. You seem to believe that such consideration, should Trion give it, would be heavily abused. All very interesting observations to be sure.

    Another viewpoint perhaps, is that maybe there are just as many people with disabilities who want to "get in to" things, not the other way around.

    Yep, you're right. I don't know you. You don't know me. Nobody knows anybody. I don't understand what point you're trying to make? I didn't quote you specifically but you seem to be taking this really, really personally.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerhawkT3 View Post
    Yes, it really is. The 3D aspect doesn't disqualify it from being useful. The lesson taught by that quest is that you should avoid bad stuff, even if it lies directly between you and good stuff, which is key in raids.
    Yes that single difference, the 3D aspect, disqualifies it from even being remotely useful. Character movement has to be similar to be comparable. Or you could argue that almost every single game in which you control one character learns you that you should avoid bad stuff in rift, even the old 2D mario games.

    Quote Originally Posted by TigerhawkT3 View Post
    If it was 2D, would you still say that it was useless for raiders just because it doesn't have enemies or require ten people to complete?
    Just because one difference disqualifies it, doesn't mean other differences have to disqualify it too. That is some flawed logic there.
    Last edited by Dico; 10-10-2018 at 09:07 AM.

  9. #39
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    The quest for the "raid weapon" (I call it that because it is only REALLY required for BOS) tests your ability to sit on your behind and do really boring crap for a very long time. That's the majority of it... all the mindless grinding that made me want to stab myself in the leg with a spork. Then there is one fast little quest that tests actual raid relevant skills: situational awareness (ie, finding the "good" path), being able to get out of stupid (ie, avoid red balls), ability to move well (every raider needs that, don't argue), and reaction time (sorry, you need that to raid).

    No, there isn't a raid where you get flung in the air or ride a balloon (and yes I hated Malagos in WoW). But there are plenty of raids where you have to move real fast out of the way of red / missiles / piles of poop / purple balls of death / etc.

    So a raid weapon has a single quest that tests raid relevant skills. Working as intended if you ask me. I know a lot of people with terrible latency, people who are older, people with slower reaction time. Most of them have been able to do it; most of them on their own after much practice.

    Like many people said, do the quest, give it your best, practice. Then if you still can't do it, find a kind soul to help you. Heck, send me a PM when you get to that stage and I will help. I've done it almost 10x now; some of those on EU with 250+ latency. First time took me 2 hours; I have a very hard time seeing blue properly. Now I can get it on the first try most times. Practice makes perfect!

    edit: forgot to mention that in addition to difficulty seeing blue my left hand is faked up and on a bad day I have so much pain I'd drop a glass of water if I were to pick it up with that hand.... (is that disabled enough to get CS to advance quests for me?)
    Last edited by Leocadia; 10-10-2018 at 09:38 AM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faeraday View Post
    It is completely NOT useful. It would be like asking someone to learn how to do their taxes while skiing - a totally unnecessary complication if the intent is to teach a basic task such as, you know, your taxes. It just seems like you are really trying to stretch to make this puzzle somehow relevant to raiding and it is not. Feel free to disagree.

    Thank you for clarifying that people who have disabilities are solely looking for ways to "get out of" things. Like getting out of having to do raids, or being in dungeons. You seem to believe that such consideration, should Trion give it, would be heavily abused. All very interesting observations to be sure.

    Another viewpoint perhaps, is that maybe there are just as many people with disabilities who want to "get in to" things, not the other way around.

    Yep, you're right. I don't know you. You don't know me. Nobody knows anybody. I don't understand what point you're trying to make? I didn't quote you specifically but you seem to be taking this really, really personally.
    Your analogy is flawed. In a raid, you have to move into good spots and avoid bad spots quickly because if you don't you'll take damage. In the particle quest, you have to move into good spots and avoid bad spots quickly because if you don't you'll get a lower score. It's the same basic lesson, only it doesn't kill you if you fail.

    Not all disabled people are trying to "get out of" things, but some people in this thread are. And yes, providing an avenue to skip content with a disability claim would be both used and abused, as determining the right times to allow it would be extremely messy.

    Additionally, if Trion gave in to the notion that moving in 3D is not related to raiding, that closes the door on raids with flying, swimming, and levitating/jumping mechanics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dico View Post
    Yes that single difference, the 3D aspect, disqualifies it from even being remotely useful. Character movement has to be similar to be comparable. Or you could argue that almost every single game in which you control one character learns you that you should avoid bad stuff in rift, even the old 2D mario games.


    Just because one difference disqualifies it, doesn't mean other differences have to disqualify it too. That is some flawed logic there.
    No, that single difference does not disqualify it from even being remotely useful. "Just because one difference disqualifies it, doesn't mean other differences have to disqualify it too" is not what I said, so pretending that it is is a strawman.

  11. #41
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    No, it is not flawed.

    There are plenty of elements that are properly represented in the stages leading up to this one, many of them difficult for the same people in this thread.

    There is not a single mechanic anywhere in current raid content that requires 3D maneuvering. Making an appeal to perhaps someday maybe future content will use this mechanic is more stretching imo.

    It is intended to be a puzzle, and has no significant applicability towards raiding otherwise there would be a similar mechanism in current content - the same content this weapon was designed for.

    Perhaps there is just something about this particular requirement that, no matter how much effort is spent, is simply beyond the ability of others without some kind of assistance.

    We've established nobody knows anybody here, so it is not for me to assume what any given player's ability level might be.

    I also won't try to justify or deny anyone else's pain by sharing any anecdotal experience I may or may not have regarding any condition in particular. Because that kind of information is equally inapplicable - I would never presume to tell anyone who has condition x that I also have condition x and I can do y just fine therefore so can you, because of the previous paragraph.

    Should they risk getting punished/banned or taken advantage of by unscrupulous players just to get past this hurdle, or would it be better for everybody if there was some way to handle the issue in an officially sanctioned way?

  12.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #42
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    I am late to this thread.
    I've asked Nomis to take action regarding the snarky, unhelpful posters.

    I am sorry to see anyone mocking those with disabilities, be they visual, physical or mental. NOT IN OUR HOUSE.

    Let me add: advancing age IS a disability - it affects everything from vision to memory to reaction speed. Vertigo is a disability, and the main reason I cannot complete this stage myself. Color blindness is a rather common disability and the most common complaint in gaming. Any of these can impact the completion of this particular quest.

    These disabilities do not necessarily affect people in raids though - that correlation cannot be made.

    While I have trouble with this quest myself, I know others sail through it.
    I will bring the question to the Dev team again for consideration.
    Last edited by TrionBrasse; 10-10-2018 at 12:32 PM.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sails View Post
    You can white knight for a company supposedly fully functional and staffed, that stays in need of apology and forgiveness. Promises broken, things broken, things unfinished...bugs and glitches like a mine field. But you lack empathy for real people who just might need it. I'm talking about people with issues you either know nothing about or don't care. I'm not even going to go into all that is wrong with this. I don't play well with others and don't know how to say things nicely. But just think this over. Go read something other than Rift posts.
    Sorry you took what I said completely out of context I suppose. I wasn't poking fun at anyone, only pointing out that the topic has been brought up numerous times and relayed what they officially stated the last time it was discussed. Plenty of people with and without disabilities argued for and against alternative paths for it, but there simply aren't any plans for any in the immediate future. Perhaps i should've better clarified, but please read more carefully next time you start throwing out accusations.

    Edit: Mid typing before Brasse's post went up in regard to official dev statements.
    Last edited by Holyroller12; 10-10-2018 at 12:30 PM.

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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse View Post
    I am late to this thread.
    I've asked Nomis to take action regarding the snarky, unhelpful posters.

    I am sorry to see anyone mocking those with disabilities, be they visual, physical or mental. NOT IN OUR HOUSE.

    While I have trouble with this quest myself, I know others sail through it. I will bring the question to the Dev team again for consideration.
    Thank you for being kind, Brasse - your consideration is all we can ask for.

    It really does mean a lot to many of us.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse View Post
    I am late to this thread.
    I've asked Nomis to take action regarding the snarky, unhelpful posters.

    I am sorry to see anyone mocking those with disabilities, be they visual, physical or mental. NOT IN OUR HOUSE.

    While I have trouble with this quest myself, I know others sail through it. I will bring the question to the Dev team again for consideration.
    Awesome. I am sure many people will be thankful if some sort of alternate path or change is done. I remember all the older posts and it did seem as though numerous people had issues with it, so imo, not a bad idea to attempt to make even a minor change to it.

    In time, in time! thx for the reply to this thread!
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