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Thread: in defence of a paying playing patron/News about a producer letter

  1. #1
    Plane Walker AtoningUnifex's Avatar
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    Default in defence of a paying playing patron/News about a producer letter

    Just wanted to highlight something that some folks in the threads may be misinterpreting as "whiteknighting"...

    Holyroller has been playing this game for an awful long time and yes he will defend it vociferously from time to time, but he is like many of the long timers also equally capable of highlighting issues in both a well considered and typically thought out constructive manner.

    He is also on a weekly basis these last few months pulling together rapid updates and summaries of the livestreams for those of us for whom for various real life reasons may not be able to watch them at the time. This is something that in the not so soi-distant past would have been done by TRION themselves.

    So first of all thank you Holyroller for being able to do this, it is appreciated by the community.

    Now we may not always agree about direction of game or about the handling of concerns raised but Holy will also take the time and effort to try and answer questions using information from livestreams and forums and from personal experience in the game, and there are a great many people who may misinterpret this as white knight style behavior. It isn't, It is a demonstration of knowledge and understanding and having information at fingertips ready for use that is being shown here, and again there will be times where that is to highlight an issue.

    So with that all being said, there have been a number of threads opened and closed recently to complain or bemoan lack of Live content, and I am as guilty as the next person for commenting on this as I want to see my patron being used on Live where I play....but that is my money to do with as I please and if not getting satisfaction I can take it elsewhere...my choice!

    Here is the crux of the matter....the end result of these threads and the commentary back and forth amongst the players, is this:

    THERE IS A PRODUCER LETTER COMING THIS MONTH ABOUT LIVE!!!!

    Confirmed by brasse at the end of this thread:

    http://forums.riftgame.com/general-d...ml#post5365277

    We asked for it and now we have a date for the producer letter and from that hopefully a timeline for new content.

    Brasse it may be worth getting an official post on front page about this to highlight it!

    So, thank you to Holyroller, the creator programme members, the dataminers, the people who ask and answer questions and and everyone else who contributes to the discussions on these and other fora, and all the players themselves who keep on grinding, dungeoneering, dimensioneering and eventing. It is this level of community involvement that keeps interest in the game and issue resolution at the forefront of the DEV teams minds.

    Tuppenceworth exceeded and probably about 20p worth.

    TLDR: Holyroller trying to help people, everyone is cool and there is a producer letter on live in October (confirmed by Brasse)
    Last edited by AtoningUnifex; 10-04-2018 at 11:35 AM. Reason: massive edit for inclusion of info thread from Brasse

  2. #2
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Kitasia's Avatar
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    Plus one thousand what they said

  3. #3
    Plane Touched ConcreteDonkies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtoningUnifex View Post
    THERE IS A PRODUCER LETTER COMING THIS MONTH ABOUT LIVE!!!!
    This means nothing. The last three producer's letters all promised things for live that were blatantly false, such as IGSB being nearly complete in January, or an utter omission of anything relevant to live, such as in the last letter.

    We are FAR past the point of a letter going out in the next several weeks being anywhere near enough. The last several of them offered nothing or flat out lied to the player-base. Talk is cheap. It's even cheaper when you have already demolished your own credibility.
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  4. #4
    Soulwalker
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    This is coming from a programmers/software developers mindset. This is probably also my first post on the forums, even though I lurk them a few times a day, so if not being a consistent poster discredits me, so be it...

    I understand the complete frustration that people have over current Live content. I'm quite frustrated as well and I've never even experienced anything past Tartaric Depths. *If this discredits me as well, so be it...

    The constant "we have new content coming, but can't confirm anything yet" week after week is pretty demotivating. If something is confirmed, we won't say how far along in the process the content is, and won't talk about technicalities of the content either...

    I do get irritated at all the threads that just flame Trion. "No content - luls". "Prime is the only server that matters - screw Live". "I'm leaving because Trion". No one ever seems to offer anything constructive other than just constant negativity.

    On the flip side, I understand and know first hand how "irritable" code/systems can be. Sometimes a "simple" change can break another piece of the game, and fixing that piece can break another, etc... It's not an excuse to get them off the hook, but sometimes retrofitting old things/code requires serious work amongst a vast amount of different systems just to make them all better now and for the future. Every programmer goes through this, as nothing can be perfect and futureproof from the start.

    For example, I made a simple text change on a website ("House" -> "Home") that took 4 days to track down and fix why every page would have server errors. Sometimes people underestimate the harshness that coding is.

    I would also like to thank Hollyroller and the other community members, they do an awesome job! I'm staying around as I still enjoy the game and I have lots of things to do still.

    TLDR: I'm a programmer and understand the nuances that happen, but also feel better communication is needed overall, and am sticking around.

  5. #5
    Ascendant Seshatar's Avatar
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    Holyroller is a great guy indeed, a very active, passionate and constructive player who is always willing to take the extra effort for the community.

    That aside, a lot of the frustration here in the forums has a reason. And I agree, the last 2-3 producer's letters weren't much more than PR talk and promises of which many weren't kept. A new producer's letter won't help much, especially when it's just "sometime in the future" or world event or cosmetic stuff.
    • Autumn Harvest is not new content.
    • iGSB is not new content.
    • Tenebrean Trouble puzzle dungeon is new content but is only interesting for a very small part of the playerbase.
    • We have yet to learn more about planar diciples and planar dungeons, but it doesn't seem to be challenging, group-based content or pvp, which is what many are seeking for.

    I mean is it really that impossible to bring out a brand new 10-man raid / a dungeon / a new zone every 2-3 months and maybe make pvp seasons via the prestige system and pvp gear upgrades so there is some progression there too?

    The new power packs seem to sell well, I bet if you would bring some thousand players back with actual content they'd sell even better...
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  6. #6
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConcreteDonkies View Post
    This means nothing. The last three producer's letters all promised things for live that were blatantly false, such as IGSB being nearly complete in January, or an utter omission of anything relevant to live, such as in the last letter.

    We are FAR past the point of a letter going out in the next several weeks being anywhere near enough. The last several of them offered nothing or flat out lied to the player-base. Talk is cheap. It's even cheaper when you have already demolished your own credibility.
    +1

    We don't need another letter with empty promises and lies.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshatar View Post
    Holyroller is a great guy indeed, a very active, passionate and constructive player who is always willing to take the extra effort for the community.

    That aside, a lot of the frustration here in the forums has a reason. And I agree, the last 2-3 producer's letters weren't much more than PR talk and promises of which many weren't kept. A new producer's letter won't help much, especially when it's just "sometime in the future" or world event or cosmetic stuff.
    • Autumn Harvest is not new content.
    • iGSB is not new content.
    • Tenebrean Trouble puzzle dungeon is new content but is only interesting for a very small part of the playerbase.
    • We have yet to learn more about planar diciples and planar dungeons, but it doesn't seem to be challenging, group-based content or pvp, which is what many are seeking for.

    I mean is it really that impossible to bring out a brand new 10-man raid / a dungeon / a new zone every 2-3 months and maybe make pvp seasons via the prestige system and pvp gear upgrades so there is some progression there too?

    The new power packs seem to sell well, I bet if you would bring some thousand players back with actual content they'd sell even better...
    With the dev hours they have a new raid or dungeon every 2-3 MONTHS is indeed "really that impossible". That's a really fast turnaround for ANY game, let alone Trion.
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  8. #8
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seshatar View Post
    • Autumn Harvest is not new content.
    • iGSB is not new content.
    • Tenebrean Trouble puzzle dungeon is new content but is only interesting for a very small part of the playerbase.
    • We have yet to learn more about planar diciples and planar dungeons, but it doesn't seem to be challenging, group-based content or pvp, which is what many are seeking for.
    Also, producer's letters are not new content. It's more likely to be a marketing thing full of hype for things that likely won't be delivered, like it usually is.

    Intrepid Return to Promo Weeks are not really new content.

    Closing threads for being "non-constructive" is not new content, and is an anti-constructive activity in itself.

  9. #9
    Plane Walker AtoningUnifex's Avatar
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    The two points I was making were:
    1. To defend someone from the extensive criticism that I feel is unwarranted
    2. We have finally managed to get a communication about a producer letter.

    Making this subtle distinction here - communication about a producers letter....why is that phrase important,?

    Because this will be the first formal communcation from the producer since the last producer letter, and actually for me will be the make or break moment for Rift (and I have played since early Beta). If I am not satisfied with what is FINALLY being communicated then my money is going to ESO.

    Just wanted to clarify that I was only pointing out that we had the first communication about a formal communication to the community about content and direction for live.
    Last edited by AtoningUnifex; 10-04-2018 at 09:59 PM.

  10. #10
    Plane Touched ConcreteDonkies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtoningUnifex View Post
    The two points I was making were:
    1. To defend someone from the extensive criticism that I feel is unwarranted
    2. We have finally managed to get a communication about a producer letter.
    I'll state the issue with this again. The last THREE letters from the devs were either totally negligent to live or filled with empty promises and outright lies. There has been no reason offered that suggests this letter will be any different. It has become extremely clear that these letters just don't mean anything anymore. The only thing that does mean anything is tangible results, which have not been presented for almost a year now.

    This is far too little far too late.
    Starfall Prophecy? More like Overall Amount of Content Fall Prophecy.
    Prophecy of Ahnket? More like Prophecy of Content Drought.
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  11. #11
    Ascendant Holyroller12's Avatar
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    To start off with. Thank you for the sentiment behind the thread. I appreciate it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ConcreteDonkies View Post
    I'll state the issue with this again. The last THREE letters from the devs were either totally negligent to live or filled with empty promises
    The last few letters have explicitly gone out of their way to not make any promises and was prefaced with "these are the plans" going forward or things they hope to accomplishment as they know full well that promising things only leads to frustration and negativity if those plans end up changing in some way or not coming to fruition on time or at all. Much like the frustration you're currently voicing.

    I agree that the last letter didn't really have much to offer in actual news besides Rift Prime and communication does need to be a lot better, but it's always been a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of situation in that regard. Here are the 2 scenarios (including the one we're currently in):

    A) Release tidbits, give news/updates on possible upcoming content and even preface with that, but still have a good chunk of your playerbase rake you over the coals for it when some of those plans are changed behind the scenes for various reasons and make threads about how you lied to them and promised that content is going to come even though they prefaced otherwise. (This was the case in NT and why we're in scenario B)

    B) Give out very few hints, but don't announce anything unless you're 110% sure it's going to come and even then there can be last minute changes/delays. This way you can mostly promise updates because you would only be announcing them when they're absolutely ready anyway.

    I don't think people quite remember (or remember differently depending on the perspective) just how absolutely toxic these forums were in Nightmare Tide which has caused the current situation we're in. Developers can take harsh criticism, but that "criticism" often wasn't constructive and would devolve into simply flaming specific devs and or the company as a whole. Some even going to personal social medias of devs and flaming them there.

    I think rather than complaining about the situation we're in, in regard to communication, people should suggest realistic alternatives even if those suggestions get denied. It doesn't hurt to try as long as you keep it grounded and constructive.
    Last edited by Holyroller12; 10-04-2018 at 10:37 PM.

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  12. #12
    Plane Touched ConcreteDonkies's Avatar
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    These defenses just don't hold any water. I will point out that the dev team absolutely has made promises they haven't kept. The letters have also included status updates that are demonstrably false. The summer letter promised eternal weapon changes and a fragment rework, yet neither of these things have happened. The January letter promised that prime would not cause a loss in quality on live, which it CLEARLY has. It also stated they were putting the finishing touches IGSB which was a flat out lie. These dev letters just don't mean anything when they've squandered all their credibility.

    You can try to justify it by saying that they simply don't have the man power to do it all. That would be all well and good if they were honest about it. But the fact is that they've been insisting that the game isn't in maintenance mode, is healthy, and is being supported. And they've been doing so to get players to continue to put money into the game with the expectation of that development and support. They've clearly been doing this while knowing they couldn't honor this expectations. That is taking money in very bad faith and is only marginally better than stealing.

    In addition to all of that, it is entirely unrealistic to hope that things are going too improve. They aren't going to pump Rift up with the labor it needs to succeed, as evidenced by the 15 layoffs Trion did recently. And with SL having launched, it's safe to say the few devs they have are gonna be tied up with supporting that in the foreseeable future.

    Lastly, I'd like to point out that Amaray claimed, in the Spring, that live would see three major updates this year. Given that the first one was summerfest and the next one seems poised to be just Autumnfest, it stands to reason that all live will be getting is Winterfest for the remainder of the year. That is the content delivery cycle of a game that is firmly in maintenance mode.
    Starfall Prophecy? More like Overall Amount of Content Fall Prophecy.
    Prophecy of Ahnket? More like Prophecy of Content Drought.
    Rift: Maintenance Mode.

  13. #13
    Soulwalker
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    Agree 100% with Concrete-dude(or dudette).

    These trion (paid) subverters are actually harming the game, masking and diluting every negative and/or constructive criticism under the guise of toxicity. It's time for CMs and devs to come clean, apologize for the draconian rule of forums and start building our community back.

    The keyword here is: community management, communication and accepting BAD reviews too.

    (plus: hire a lot more devs to actually push and build more content

    Thanks a bunch.

  14. #14
    Plane Walker
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    Holy does what he can to keep the game alive, like a lot of us have over the years. He has just picked up the mantle of sharing info on here that Trion seems incapable of doing for some reason.

    I just think the well here is dry. I have long defended this game. the people who play it, and the people who run it. Yet the game is split and lacking in new(ish) content, recycling and lurching for one direction to another and doing nothing to reverse the fall. The people who play it are mostly gone - literally everyone I knew over 7 years is gone having given up entirely on Trion and Rift. The people who run it or ran it are mostly gone. Its been a cycling in of new people, jumping from Trion game to Trion game, even as Rift circles the drain.

    I wish things could be better, but no one seems to be able to offer a way to actually reverse the decline.
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  15. #15
    General of Telara
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    Guys, don't set yourself up for a fall.

    The Dev letter is not an objective, honest statement to the playerbase. It is for boasting in public about the game. That's it's job. I don't blame them for doing so. Trions money to product quality ratio is heavily skewed towards the money end(1). That's fine, thats their perogative but please make sure you are aware of it too and don't hold false hopes for something that won't happen.


    (1)
    - 80 pound lockbox for a random mount you might already have. - You could stop here to be frank. This was disgusting.

    - Gambling lockboxes with no description of odds. - promoting gambling and preying on certain human traits. Predatory behaviour.
    - Introducing RNG equipment and Fragment boxes that can also be purchased for credits. Same as above.
    - Water Attument. - literally locking gear behind pay walls.
    - Earring slots - Large token investment originally and then changed to a credit only purchase and then thankfully removed. Nasty.
    - Buy to play expansions unfinished at launch. Some might say still so.
    Last edited by Balidin; 10-05-2018 at 08:31 AM.

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