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Thread: Comparison of ST Damage, HPS, THPS and APS of all classes after 4.5 Patch 7/11/2018

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedynn View Post
    The net loss in DPS is nearly 0 if any at all. In fact I would say it can even be a DPS gain. It is already gain just to replace the cleric with a primalist dps anyway.
    I'd like to know where you see using conflagrate is a dps gain for the primalist, because that's not the case for what i know. You will loose around 100k to 150k dps(maybe even more, last time i checked was 2-3 month) by using it in you rotation.
    Building 20 cunning and wasting 1 gcd in it , is soooooo bad in the tight rotation the spec have , you loose too much dps using it. Maybe you could show me parse of you doing more dps with conflagrate, i'd like to see this.

    I agree with you , replacing a cleric by a prima using it is a dps gain , however finding even more prima is hard nowadays.
    But speaking about primalist dps only , it's a dps loss for the player who use conflagrate on his rotation.

  2. #122
    Xly
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    I believe Aedynn meant that using Conflagrate is a DPS gain for the raid, not for the poor primalist forced to be doing it. And yes, from my experience it's about a 100-200k dps loss for the primalist. It just doesn't fit properly anywhere in the rotation

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xly View Post
    I believe Aedynn meant that using Conflagrate is a DPS gain for the raid, not for the poor primalist forced to be doing it. And yes, from my experience it's about a 100-200k dps loss for the primalist. It just doesn't fit properly anywhere in the rotation
    But why should he? he answered to me and i clearly spoke about the primalists personal dps.
    I even wrote about the usefulness of the 5% debuff in the first place ...
    it is clearly a dps gain for the full raid, thats also the reason why i wrote that if you have no cleric in the raid, the primalist should do the debuff.

    But if there is a cleric, there is no need for the primalist to suffer personal dps loss.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kugelschreiber View Post
    But why should he? he answered to me and i clearly spoke about the primalists personal dps.
    I even wrote about the usefulness of the 5% debuff in the first place ...
    it is clearly a dps gain for the full raid, thats also the reason why i wrote that if you have no cleric in the raid, the primalist should do the debuff.

    But if there is a cleric, there is no need for the primalist to suffer personal dps loss.
    I don't really know much about Primalist but I just don't see why the guide doesn't have it in the opener. You can definitely start the fight off with using it since you can start fight with 100 in Fury and it should at least add to the burst with Flaring Power. I don't know much about primalist though. Losing 100K-200K seems quite alot though for keeping up a hard hitting DoT every 15 secs. Maybe I should check it out but I am not bored enough.
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 09-11-2018 at 10:02 PM.

  5. #125
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    I have added the Raid ST DPS numbers for the top 8 guilds and compare them with the top 8 guilds before 4.5.

    Because of the last patch (Reduced health and damage values of Commander Isiel, Vindicator MK1, Titan X) I need the new HP values of Vindicator Mk1, Commander Isiel and Titan X to calculate the ST damage correctly.

    The HP values in the UI display are not 100% correct because they are rounded. For a correct HP value you would have to create a macro. The following macro will give you the exact HP value of your target. Maybe someone can give me the new numbers.

    Code:
    script my_target = Inspect.Unit.Detail("player.target")
    script dump(my_target.name .. " = " .. my_target.healthMax .. " HP")

  6. #126
    Prophet of Telara Refuge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kugelschreiber View Post
    But why should he? he answered to me and i clearly spoke about the primalists personal dps.
    I even wrote about the usefulness of the 5% debuff in the first place ...
    it is clearly a dps gain for the full raid, thats also the reason why i wrote that if you have no cleric in the raid, the primalist should do the debuff.

    But if there is a cleric, there is no need for the primalist to suffer personal dps loss.
    I believe he wasn't talking personally as he mentioned net, which actually makes the argument completely pointless. You're fighting each other with the same points.

    However it did sound like Aedynn was originally assuming there was no detrimental impact on the Primalist to use conflagulate as he's mentioned this many times without stating it's dps loss for doing so. Convenient to leave out or didn't know about it?

    I mean it literally comes down to this:

    - Kugel says if there's a cleric and primalist in the group, you obviously don't ask the primalist to use conflag. Hence a 150k dps gain.

    - Aedynn is saying don't use a cleric at all, use a primalist as they are better, despite the 150k dps loss on the primalist (according to charts, this would stand).

    - Both of you are saying (or should be saying), Clerics optimal spot is probably OT with tenebrious distortion to cover the buff for both inquisitor and primalist.



    Now considering these are all true, you're arguing for the sake of it. Primalists are rarer than most, and often used for the hybrid spec, so if there's space, take a cleric, why not.

    If you have all the choice in the world (doubtful), and you want the best best possible dps, then you should be taking cleric as an OT. Not for the res, but for the 5% debuff, as you probably don't want an inquisitor, and you clearly don't want a Primalist using conflagurate. I don't know of any other tank that could boost damage further within these conditions. I also don't know of any other tank that can produce as much AoE damage as cleric tank. Correct me if I'm wrong.
    Last edited by Refuge; 09-20-2018 at 02:01 AM.
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  7. #127
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    I see the titanX dps values for clerics have changed since stacking and ignoring mechanics isn't an option. Inquisitor really does need some sort of viable aoe to help with the first stage.
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  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Refuge View Post
    I believe he wasn't talking personally as he mentioned net, which actually makes the argument completely pointless. You're fighting each other with the same points.

    However it did sound like Aedynn was originally assuming there was no detrimental impact on the Primalist to use conflagulate as he's mentioned this many times without stating it's dps loss for doing so. Convenient to leave out or didn't know about it?

    I mean it literally comes down to this:

    - Kugel says if there's a cleric and primalist in the group, you obviously don't ask the primalist to use conflag. Hence a 150k dps gain.

    - Aedynn is saying don't use a cleric at all, use a primalist as they are better, despite the 150k dps loss on the primalist (according to charts, this would stand).

    - Both of you are saying (or should be saying), Clerics optimal spot is probably OT with tenebrious distortion to cover the buff for both inquisitor and primalist.



    Now considering these are all true, you're arguing for the sake of it. Primalists are rarer than most, and often used for the hybrid spec, so if there's space, take a cleric, why not.

    If you have all the choice in the world (doubtful), and you want the best best possible dps, then you should be taking cleric as an OT. Not for the res, but for the 5% debuff, as you probably don't want an inquisitor, and you clearly don't want a Primalist using conflagurate. I don't know of any other tank that could boost damage further within these conditions. I also don't know of any other tank that can produce as much AoE damage as cleric tank. Correct me if I'm wrong.
    Good thread of information for guilds still running BOS. On NA its a lot easier finding a cleric tank than primalist, and of course the rarest of all the proficient multi-spec player.
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  9. #129
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    Here are some updates for the new year:

    I have added some percentile charts to the spreadsheet.

    The top rogues can now position themselves well ahead of mages thanks to a new spec. Because the spec is relatively new and there are only a few combatlogs where it is played, this is not yet directly reflected in the percentile charts. I assume that the rogue class will be on the same DPS level as the warrior class for melee friendly bosses and above the warrior class for range bosses.

    Clerics are still falling behind, in the top 20 leaderboard there are only 2 players left. The current top DPS spec of the cleric also has no cleave and is not mobile, which makes it even worse in comparison to the top dps specs from the other classes.

    Expected top ST ranking in the near future: Primalist > Rogue >= Warrior > Mage > Cleric

    Because you don't need 61 points in the tank soul anymore (no legendary hits from bosses) hybrid tanks are possible. This will change the meta again. There are now hybrid tank specs possible with over 1 m dps or heal and support at the same time. Through the intelligent use of hybrid tanks, the entire Raid DPS can be significantly increased.

    Rogue tanks will probably be the most efficient hybrid tank class because they are the most flexible (dps or support + heal) to use.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamul View Post
    Because you don't need 61 points in the tank soul anymore (no legendary hits from bosses) hybrid tanks are possible. This will change the meta again. There are now hybrid tank specs possible with over 1 m dps or heal and support at the same time. Through the intelligent use of hybrid tanks, the entire Raid DPS can be significantly increased.

    Rogue tanks will probably be the most efficient hybrid tank class because they are the most flexible (dps or support + heal) to use.
    I actually reported this legendary hit business back in early October when it first started cropping up. I don't believe it's intended and from what I saw back then, legendary hit still exists, but there's a bug within BoS where it's hitting for little to nothing compared to how much HP people have even as a dps. There's likely going to come a time where they hotfix it and kill a lot of the hybrids people are enjoying, but i'll be surprised if they don't.
    Last edited by Holyroller12; 01-14-2019 at 07:05 PM.

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  11. #131
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    If this was still run by Trion, fixing it would probably be the highest priority since it allows people to have fun in a 15 months old raid. But since there's hardly any developing going on ... I have hope that we can have some nice runs with the current meta

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holyroller12 View Post
    I actually reported this legendary hit business back in early October when it first started cropping up. I don't believe it's intended and from what I saw back then, legendary hit still exists, but there's a bug within BoS where it's hitting for little to nothing compared to how much HP people have even as a dps. There's likely going to come a time where they hotfix it and kill a lot of the hybrids people are enjoying, but i'll be surprised if they don't.
    As far as I know, the legendary hits have not been active in other raids too, but I didn't test it myself.

    I'm relatively sure that the bug has been around for much longer, probably a side effect of a change for the Prime server.

    We first noticed this at Titan X because he didn't kill the damage dealer immediately after the tank died.
    We have successfully tested a bard/heal/tank hybrid spec that who was able to take over tank, support and heal in one role. Because we didn't want to take advantage of the bug we still played with a classic 61 Tank setup in the following raids.

    Meanwhile, I think it's cool that you don't need 61 points in the tank anymore because it invites you to experiment and would be a breath of fresh air for raid builds.

    Basically you are right, in the long run this could be a serious balancing problem and probably needs to be fixed. But as Xly said I don't see a problem with 15 month old content, finally you can have some fun with new builds.

  13. #133
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    I know they intentionally removed it from LFR, but that was about it. I personally only noticed it back in October while watching a random stream where some people were talking about it, but at the time it seemed to only be on Azranel. I had heard about it on the other bosses til now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamul View Post
    \Basically you are right, in the long run this could be a serious balancing problem and probably needs to be fixed. But as Xly said I don't see a problem with 15 month old content, finally you can have some fun with new builds.
    I think that's a fair point in regard to it being old content and it's nice to have some fun, but you also don't want to give people false expectations and have them think that's going to be the norm for other raids unless they start specifically balancing around hybrids again.

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  14. #134
    Isp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holyroller12 View Post
    I think that's a fair point in regard to it being old content and it's nice to have some fun, but you also don't want to give people false expectations and have them think that's going to be the norm for other raids unless they start specifically balancing around hybrids again.
    Which other raids? We already have everything which Rift will ever have. You can expect small stuff like calendar rewards changes, but nothing substantial.
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  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isp View Post
    Which other raids? We already have everything which Rift will ever have. You can expect small stuff like calendar rewards changes, but nothing substantial.
    That's always a possibility for sure, but I don't feel much of a need to be overly negative about it either.

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