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Thread: What is the point of BM?

  1. #1
    Plane Touched Rivkah's Avatar
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    Default What is the point of BM?

    Note: This is NOT an effort to get Archon or Mystic nerfed. This thread is intended as a discussion and comparison between the supports and how good they are their stated aim (supporting a raid)

    It was clear from the start of this expansion, when all the support's large raid cooldowns were made more uniform and all shared the same 5 minute debuff, that Trion is intending to normalize the supports and make them all somewhat interchangable. In light of this, what is the point of BM? It is vastly inferior to both of the other raid supports meant to fulfil the same slot. People are also welcome to compare and contrast bard and defiler, but my main focus is BM's lack of a niche.

    Here are some ways in which archon is superior to BM:

    -The strength, dex, int, and wisdom raid buff grants an additional +1040 stat, versus the toggled equivalent in BM only granting +800 of all those stats. That's a +240 main stat increase by choosing an archon versus a BM

    -The debuffs that can be applied to a target last for 5 minutes. They grant the archon increased resists and armor. The debuffs can be cast from range. The BM's equivalent (twin cuts) only lasts for 35 seconds, grants the BM nothing special, and is only castable from melee range. This means a BM must be in melee range of the target at least once every 35 seconds in order to get the debuffs on the target, and reapply them more frequently. The comparative simplicity makes archon a clear choice instead of a BM.

    -Flaring power has an option of being increased to 60 seconds versus the BM equivalent only lasting 30 seconds with no option to increase its duration. This one difference ALONE is enough to make BM an inferior choice over archon. That BM has the same duration of battle weary debuff after their inferior flaring power is just extra insult to injury.

    -Power drain gives archon an option of reducing the target's outgoing dps by 10%. This ability to mitigate the damage dealt to your raid alone is superior to any of BM's defensive cds. The best defense is to never have taken that damage in the first place.

    -Archon has access to both Purification AND Cleansing Flames. Archon has a spammable cleanse that cleanses 10 people WHILE purging the enemy and a spammable single target cleanse. BM has absolutely no cleanse at all, let alone an AOE group cleanse. BM's purge is also inferior as it is only 1 purge every 10 seconds, versus an archon's ability to purge on every Cleansing Flames cast. The superiority is clear.

    -Granite Salvo increases the raid's AP and SP. BM doesn't have a generic attack ability that increases the raid's AP or SP, its only AP/SP increase ability is Command to Attack, which is a 5 min cd.

    -Pillaging Stone: Further decreases the target's DPS output by reducing all offensive main stats on the target for 5 min. BM doesn't have an equivalent.

    -Waning power: reduces target's AP/SP by 5% while increasing the mage's by 10%. Another reduction to the target's DPS output.

    So basically, everything BM can do, archon can do better and from ranged. There is a DPS output difference between archon and BM, but that's irrelevant to most raid leaders, who want a support that can support the raid the best. BM is objectively inferior at that role in every category than archon, which has more utility and versatility. BM is hurt a lot by being a melee-only class, too. Some fights just arent' melee friendly at all.

    To a lesser extent, BM is also inferior to Mystic, which can do most of the things archon can do, just not as versatile as it.

    -Primal avatar provides an absorb shield greater than the additional HP provided by BM's 5 min CD HP bonus.

    -Wild Storms: Periodic 12% damage bonus to everyone nearby. BM's passive DPS increase is only 5% without the option of periodic bursts of 12%.

    -Hurricane Breach: Does the same thing as twin cuts but it's 30 meter range, making it more viable for movement-heavy fights or fights that are melee unfriendly.

    -Gusting veil: Incoming damage reduction by 6% versus BM's passive is 5%.

    -Natural remedies: Spammable cleanse. BM has no cleansing capabilities at all.

    The BM pet also doesn't scale with your gear appropriately, and its dps doesn't increase when your eternal weapon has procced. The pet's scaling needs work.

    Given that the two other supports have greater ability to perform in their role as supporting the raid to do more DPS and survive big hits, what is the dev's intended purpose behind the state BM is in now? I don't propose nerfing the other supports, but I would like to see changes made so that mages aren't pigeonholed into being archon for every raid, and I would like to see normalization so that warriors can have a viable place as a support. These classes should be interchangable, but they aren't. Ossification of rolesets makes for an un-fun experience where people don't feel free to play what they want.

    Devs: Can I please get clarification on why the supports were designed this way?

    Everyone else: Feel free to compare and contrast and make suggestions here. I feel like this is a topic that hasn't gotten enough talk.
    Last edited by Rivkah; 09-07-2017 at 04:58 PM.

  2. #2
    Soulwalker
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    I feel like it's just one of those things that needs an update and rework. We are waiting for a DPS balance from Keyens. I remember that there was going to be a support rework after the release of Mystic and DPS balancing. Like BM needs an overhaul much like Oracle needs a rework as well. For BM it just needs updates on abilities like making some of the OGCD stuff give the same buffs as Mystic/Archon,as an example. But let me ask, what is the point of Oracle? I mean right now I think it can do more DPS than a Bard but that's it. A Bard's heal is too good to pass up in getting an Oracle for the shields. Then Oracle itself is a bought soul so likely less peeps bought it. It also has "dead" legendaries. Alacrity is useless in a 61, Defend the Fallen doesn't actually block raid kill mechs which is the only reason to get it. So yeah I feel like Oracle is in the same place as BM. Just completely inferior for what's needed.

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    The BM rework was mentioned to be done so many times by now, that it can be considered as a runing joke at this point. It goes back to pre NMT release, if not even further back. At this point in time i think of BM as a near usless hybrid of type A and B supports that can't really decide which way to lean.

    It lacks the +2500 AP/SP buff that all others have. It's +1000 resistance buff actually gives +27 instead, not that it makes much difference though. Its 2nd 5min dps cd is +15% AP/SP gain for 30s which is vastly inferior to Archons or Mystics buffs. And so on...

    What puzzles me the most is the legendaries that we got shifitng almost all the damage to the pet. Just makes no sense, especially with all the issues connected with Rift's pet system and combat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rivkah View Post
    -The strength, dex, int, and wisdom raid buff grants an additional +1040 stat, versus the toggled equivalent in BM only granting +800 of all those stats. That's a +240 main stat increase by choosing an archon versus a BM
    Where does the extra 240 for the raid come from? Am curious what i missed for the Warrior's Spreadsheet. Have the type A supports buff set to 800 and type B ones to 1000.

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    Plane Touched Rivkah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jotunn View Post
    The BM rework was mentioned to be done so many times by now, that it can be considered as a runing joke at this point. It goes back to pre NMT release, if not even further back. At this point in time i think of BM as a near usless hybrid of type A and B supports that can't really decide which way to lean.

    It lacks the +2500 AP/SP buff that all others have. It's +1000 resistance buff actually gives +27 instead, not that it makes much difference though. Its 2nd 5min dps cd is +15% AP/SP gain for 30s which is vastly inferior to Archons or Mystics buffs. And so on...

    What puzzles me the most is the legendaries that we got shifitng almost all the damage to the pet. Just makes no sense, especially with all the issues connected with Rift's pet system and combat.


    Where does the extra 240 for the raid come from? Am curious what i missed for the Warrior's Spreadsheet. Have the type A supports buff set to 800 and type B ones to 1000.
    {Mods: Mistaken double post, please delete!}
    Last edited by Rivkah; 09-08-2017 at 12:41 AM.

  5. #5
    Plane Touched Rivkah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jotunn View Post
    The BM rework was mentioned to be done so many times by now, that it can be considered as a runing joke at this point. It goes back to pre NMT release, if not even further back. At this point in time i think of BM as a near usless hybrid of type A and B supports that can't really decide which way to lean.

    It lacks the +2500 AP/SP buff that all others have. It's +1000 resistance buff actually gives +27 instead, not that it makes much difference though. Its 2nd 5min dps cd is +15% AP/SP gain for 30s which is vastly inferior to Archons or Mystics buffs. And so on...

    What puzzles me the most is the legendaries that we got shifitng almost all the damage to the pet. Just makes no sense, especially with all the issues connected with Rift's pet system and combat.


    Where does the extra 240 for the raid come from? Am curious what i missed for the Warrior's Spreadsheet. Have the type A supports buff set to 800 and type B ones to 1000.
    Ah, so the BM rework is kind of like the Half-Life 3 of Rift! That explains a lot, actually.

    The extra 240 comes from the equivalent raid buffs being different. Bond of Power increases str, dex, int, and wis by 800 but vitality of stone appears to increase the same stats by 1040, at least in all the raids I've been in. Unless it's a display bug, it seems like both buffs increase the same stats, but one does it for more. If the classes are supposed to be equivalent, Bond of Power should increase the raid's stats for the same amount that vitality of stone does.

  6. #6
    Champion of Telara Holyroller12's Avatar
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    Both BM and Archon (which put Harbchon on the shelf for good) were re-worked with all of the other vanilla souls near the end of NT. They were changed quite a bit and the damage was bumped up. I don't disagree that BM needs a much bigger re-work though. I think the biggest issue of all is that even with the ranged pet it's still mostly a melee soul and a lot of fights aren't very forgiving in that regard. Both Archon and now Mystic are ranged with mystic being the superior out of all 3.

    On the other hand though I've seen BMs pull really high numbers. I don't play it myself that often.
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    Plane Touched Rivkah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holyroller12 View Post
    Both BM and Archon (which put Harbchon on the shelf for good) were re-worked with all of the other vanilla souls near the end of NT. They were changed quite a bit and the damage was bumped up. I don't disagree that BM needs a much bigger re-work though. I think the biggest issue of all is that even with the ranged pet it's still mostly a melee soul and a lot of fights aren't very forgiving in that regard. Both Archon and now Mystic are ranged with mystic being the superior out of all 3.

    On the other hand though I've seen BMs pull really high numbers. I don't play it myself that often.
    I've pointed out the big numbers that BM puts out to raid leaders I have wanted to BM for, but that's not a convincing argument to most. It doesn't matter if one person can do an extra couple hundred thousand DPS if the other 9 people aren't getting supported as well. Losing the 30 seconds of flaring power to have a support that can do 500k sometimes objectively isn't worth it.

    I just feel like BM was barely touched in the rework, and it needs a revisit badly.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivkah View Post
    Ah, so the BM rework is kind of like the Half-Life 3 of Rift! That explains a lot, actually.

    The extra 240 comes from the equivalent raid buffs being different. Bond of Power increases str, dex, int, and wis by 800 but vitality of stone appears to increase the same stats by 1040, at least in all the raids I've been in. Unless it's a display bug, it seems like both buffs increase the same stats, but one does it for more. If the classes are supposed to be equivalent, Bond of Power should increase the raid's stats for the same amount that vitality of stone does.
    Ah, will have a look when i get the time, thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holyroller12 View Post
    On the other hand though I've seen BMs pull really high numbers. I don't play it myself that often.
    That few 100k personal dps gain, at best, is not even remotely worth the loss of dps on all other raid members. It doen't matter if BM can do a bit higher dps, it would have to do way way more to compensate for the lack of buffs it provides. On top of it all BM doesn't scale well since the pet barely (if at all) benefits from the players gear and eternal weapon.

    Just a quick comparison taken from the current version of the Warrior's Spreadsheet. Spec chosen is Overlord with pretty good gear and with the current raid compositions which include most of Bard buffs:
    - no type A supports: 1,223k dps (100%)
    - with BM as support: 1,359k dps (~111%)
    - with Archon as support: 1,402k dps (~115%)
    - with Mystic as support: 1,456k dps (~ 119%)
    While this aren't exact numbers, they should provide at least a rough comparison. So to replace Archon, BM has to do 40k+ more dps than the said Archon for each of the dps players in a raid. For Mystic that goes to almost 100k per dps player. This are averages though, so in shorter fights BM would lag even more behind.

    Edit: Messed up the base, forgot to cancel Orchesrta buff. Also this is not for the last stage Eternal and without good comparsion for cast time reductions that favor Mystic.
    Last edited by Jotunn; 09-08-2017 at 06:24 AM. Reason: Messed up the base (it included Orchestra)

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    Ascendant Gilgad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holyroller12 View Post
    Both BM and Archon (which put Harbchon on the shelf for good) were re-worked with all of the other vanilla souls near the end of NT. They were changed quite a bit and the damage was bumped up. I don't disagree that BM needs a much bigger re-work though. I think the biggest issue of all is that even with the ranged pet it's still mostly a melee soul and a lot of fights aren't very forgiving in that regard. Both Archon and now Mystic are ranged with mystic being the superior out of all 3.

    On the other hand though I've seen BMs pull really high numbers. I don't play it myself that often.
    Mystic is not superior out of the 3.

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    Champion sirdiggby's Avatar
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    lol what was the point of waiting for the overworks for chon and bm to be lined up with mystic when chon still remained on top?

    isnt this something that keyens felt was important that led to nothing really changing?

  11. #11
    Plane Touched Rivkah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirdiggby View Post
    lol what was the point of waiting for the overworks for chon and bm to be lined up with mystic when chon still remained on top?

    isnt this something that keyens felt was important that led to nothing really changing?
    Yes. When mystic released, BM and Chon were meant to be adjusted so that they all were interchangeable, but literally the only thing that Keyens changed on BM was making gaping wounds a 15 sec cd instead of a 45. Nothing was changed in order to make BM more useful to compete.

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    Soulwalker
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    Been asking for a BM fix for ages. Think its just going to be one of the souls that dies quietly in a corner like half the other ones.
    Wish they'd actually do something about it

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vivarian View Post
    Been asking for a BM fix for ages. Think its just going to be one of the souls that dies quietly in a corner like half the other ones.
    Wish they'd actually do something about it
    I'm convinced nothing will change, but I figured I'd compile a list of inequalities to give Keyens something to work with.

    Additionally, I discovered that legendary searing vitality is bugged and gives everyone in the raid an additional 12% damage. The ability is meant to only give the mage's non-archon abilities a 12% bonus damage, but instead it gives everyone on that target 12% bonus damage unless they use an archon ability. So, that's an additional 12% DPS for the raid that BM cannot provide. A chon in all blues is worth more than a full overlord BM simply due to flaring power and searing vitality.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivkah View Post
    I'm convinced nothing will change, but I figured I'd compile a list of inequalities to give Keyens something to work with.

    Additionally, I discovered that legendary searing vitality is bugged and gives everyone in the raid an additional 12% damage. The ability is meant to only give the mage's non-archon abilities a 12% bonus damage, but instead it gives everyone on that target 12% bonus damage unless they use an archon ability. So, that's an additional 12% DPS for the raid that BM cannot provide. A chon in all blues is worth more than a full overlord BM simply due to flaring power and searing vitality.
    this was supposed to be fixed last patch, though its not in the notes (unless they ninja fixed it, I haven't had a chance to re-test it)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobtheskull View Post
    this was supposed to be fixed last patch, though its not in the notes (unless they ninja fixed it, I haven't had a chance to re-test it)
    I don't believe it was fixed, because my raid today had a chon with legendary searing vitality and we did overall more DPS. Unless that was a fluke...

    Regardless, even aside from that one bugged ability, BM needs a rework badly. A really easy and lazy solution to some of the drawbacks of BM would be to make most abilities short range (like 15m even would help for movement heavy fights), give them a legendary flaring power, give them a spammable cleanse, and make some of their dots have similar side effects to the granite salvo/crumbling resistance-type abilities.

    It wouldn't take that much of a rework and I don't understand why it has been put on the backburner for so long.

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