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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: State of Raiding in Rift

  1. #1
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    Default State of Raiding in Rift

    Finally looked this up.

    Vanilla
    Rise of the Phoenix - Fall 2011 (10 man)
    Drowned Halls - Summer 2011 (10 man)
    Gilded Prophecy - Spring 2011 (10 man)
    GSB - Spring 2011 (20 man)
    RoS - Spring 2011 (20 man)
    Hammerknell August 2011 (20 man)
    Infernal Dawn Spring 2012 (20 man)
    Primeval Feast - Fall 2012 (10 man)

    That is 4 original 10s and 4 original 20s in vanilla

    Storm Legion
    Infinity Gate -Fall/Winter - 2013 (20 man)
    Planebreaker Bastion - Fall 2013 (20 man)
    Grim Awakening - Summer 2013 (10 man)
    Frozen Tempest - Fall/Winter 2012 (20 man)
    Endless Eclipse - January 2013 (20 man)
    Triumph of the Dragon Queen - Dec 2012 (10 man)
    Intrepid Drown Halls - Dec 2013 (10 man) Rehashed

    4 original 20 mans and 2 original 10 mans and 1 rehashed 10. I left out BoB as they were kind of like mini filler and not a true raid.

    Nightmare Tide

    Return to Hammerknell - June 2015 (20 man) Rehashed
    Intrepid Gilded Prophecy - Summer 2015 (10 man) Rehashed
    Mt Sharax - Fall 2014 (20 man)
    Tyrant's Forge - Spring 2015 (20 man)
    Mind of Madness - Spring 2016 (20 man)
    Comet of Ankhet - May 2016 (10 man)
    Rhen of Fate - December 2014 (10 man)

    3 original 20 mans and I rehashed. 2 original 10s and 1 rehashed.

    New Expac
    Tartaric Depths - Summer 2017 (10 man) Sort of rehashed but not counting less than t1 raids.
    Intrepid Rise of the Phoenix - Jan 2017 (10 man) Rehashed.

    Zero 20 man raids. 1 sort of original 10 man based off of LFR content and 1 rehashed 10.

    There has never been a time in the game where there was so little raid content to do outside of the first few weeks of launch. It is taking years to put out what used to be put out in months. 20s are gone and now we might see 2 10s in a year if lucky?

    Can we get a statement from the devs as to what raiding will be like in Rift going forward. 2 10s a year? 3 if you include rehashed?

    Looking at this expac, the grind is as high as it has ever been. The benefits of paying in the shop have never been clearer. However, the reasons why people would do this seem nonexistent at this point. There is very little new raid content. 20s have been abandoned. The release schedule for 10s is crap at best for players. The other big driver of the grind and peoples willingness to open wallets is PVP and there is less PVP now than in the past and it appears largely to have been abandoned.

    Is this the new normal in Rift?
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  2. #2
    Rift Disciple rlowe47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dundare View Post
    Can we get a statement from the devs as to what raiding will be like in Rift going forward.
    I think they've given their statement pretty clearly in the examples you provided.

    An official statement would be nice, but as the old adage goes - actions speak louder than words.
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  3. #3
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    Default Dundare- most serious raiders have moved on...

    Dundare- most of (our) serious Rift raiders have moseyed on to other games. I gathered a few that left from my Rift guild in another game and we are doing group runs again- which is refreshing. I still have a guild in Rift- but I do not play as much anymore- for the same reasons you outlined. Most of the people in my guild in Rift enjoy other aspects of the game. I enjoy challenging team events- and there are not enough in Rift at the moment to keep my interest. We do not even have a crazy high end raiding guild- we just had decent raiders who were unhappy with the status quo.

  4. #4
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    The quality of NT was kind of a giveaway aswell, the live pts testing was real
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    Quote Originally Posted by dundare View Post
    Finally looked this up.

    Vanilla
    Rise of the Phoenix - Fall 2011 (10 man)
    Drowned Halls - Summer 2011 (10 man)
    Gilded Prophecy - Spring 2011 (10 man)
    GSB - Spring 2011 (20 man)
    RoS - Spring 2011 (20 man)
    Hammerknell August 2011 (20 man)
    Infernal Dawn Spring 2012 (20 man)
    Primeval Feast - Fall 2012 (10 man)

    That is 4 original 10s and 4 original 20s in vanilla

    Storm Legion
    Infinity Gate -Fall/Winter - 2013 (20 man)
    Planebreaker Bastion - Fall 2013 (20 man)
    Grim Awakening - Summer 2013 (10 man)
    Frozen Tempest - Fall/Winter 2012 (20 man)
    Endless Eclipse - January 2013 (20 man)
    Triumph of the Dragon Queen - Dec 2012 (10 man)
    Intrepid Drown Halls - Dec 2013 (10 man) Rehashed

    4 original 20 mans and 2 original 10 mans and 1 rehashed 10. I left out BoB as they were kind of like mini filler and not a true raid.

    Nightmare Tide

    Return to Hammerknell - June 2015 (20 man) Rehashed
    Intrepid Gilded Prophecy - Summer 2015 (10 man) Rehashed
    Mt Sharax - Fall 2014 (20 man)
    Tyrant's Forge - Spring 2015 (20 man)
    Mind of Madness - Spring 2016 (20 man)
    Comet of Ankhet - May 2016 (10 man)
    Rhen of Fate - December 2014 (10 man)

    3 original 20 mans and I rehashed. 2 original 10s and 1 rehashed.

    New Expac
    Tartaric Depths - Summer 2017 (10 man) Sort of rehashed but not counting less than t1 raids.
    Intrepid Rise of the Phoenix - Jan 2017 (10 man) Rehashed.

    Zero 20 man raids. 1 sort of original 10 man based off of LFR content and 1 rehashed 10.

    There has never been a time in the game where there was so little raid content to do outside of the first few weeks of launch. It is taking years to put out what used to be put out in months. 20s are gone and now we might see 2 10s in a year if lucky?

    Can we get a statement from the devs as to what raiding will be like in Rift going forward. 2 10s a year? 3 if you include rehashed?

    Looking at this expac, the grind is as high as it has ever been. The benefits of paying in the shop have never been clearer. However, the reasons why people would do this seem nonexistent at this point. There is very little new raid content. 20s have been abandoned. The release schedule for 10s is crap at best for players. The other big driver of the grind and peoples willingness to open wallets is PVP and there is less PVP now than in the past and it appears largely to have been abandoned.

    Is this the new normal in Rift?
    First order of business is getting new players IN the game and stopb bleeding old players OUT to other games.

    Whats the point in making a 20 man or any new 10 mans when its kinda tough to get enough people to do anything

  6. #6
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    we didn't get a raid at launch so we are 1 behind the usually number compared to previous expansions, even going by the OP's post (as we usually get one every 3 months or so on average)

    so the devs are playing catch up, with a new raid tentatively scheduled for Fall
    Last edited by Bobtheskull; 08-10-2017 at 11:56 AM.

  7. #7
    Rift Chaser Rivkah's Avatar
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    It's impossible to make balanced encounters when there are glaring class inbalances (rogues and primas wrecking everyone), gear imbalances (do you balance around a preserver-geared raid or an overlord-geared raid?), and even tertiary stat imbalances (planar fragments).

    They basically shot themselves in the foot for making any bosses with intense enrage timers with their new gearing system because each raider's individual DPS output is so wildly varied and random. This means that they can't make any raids that are super challenging, which has caused a bleed-out of competitive raiders (Trinity's only competition with IROTP was one Euro guild. Compare that to ROF). With a shrunken population, there will be fewer resources to put into future raids.
    Last edited by Rivkah; 08-10-2017 at 11:58 AM.

  8. #8
    Champion of Telara Ongar's Avatar
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    Lets face it there are former raiding MMOs out there, where you can feel lucky if you get a new raid every two or so years. The number of MMORPGs where you get new raiding content on a regular basis, is countable on one hand.

    Rift isnt where it was raiding wise, but it could be worse (see above). The mistakes were made ages ago when they shoved a somewhat bland raid like GSB in everybodys face, but hid away a raid with top notch art design from the majority thx to an even then outdated "BC style tiered raiding system".

    At this point in time the focus is on ten men raids and I dont think there is ever any going back. Historically the more hardcore raids were the 20 mens, while the 10 mens were more casual. At this point in time you cannot tell guilds to go back to 20 men rosters. And 20 men raids that are designed with PuGs in mind dont fit well with Rifts history and mindset.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivkah View Post
    It's impossible to make balanced encounters when there are glaring class inbalances (rogues and primas wrecking everyone), gear imbalances (do you balance around a preserver-geared raid or an overlord-geared raid?), and even tertiary stat imbalances (planar fragments).

    They basically shot themselves in the foot for making any bosses with intense enrage timers with their new gearing system because each raider's individual DPS output is so wildly varied and random. This means that they can't make any raids that are super challenging, which has caused a bleed-out of competitive raiders (Trinity's only competition with IROTP was one Euro guild. Compare that to ROF). With a shrunken population, there will be fewer resources to put into future raids.
    Yet, why is no one held accountable for this?

    Why has it been ok for PVP to be abandoned?

    Why has it been ok to produce less and less even as they try to squeeze more and more from the playerbase?

    There is no reason we should not have had a new boss every 4-6 weeks in QF, which the first one being the gate keeper one anyone can do. Once you kill that you unlock your chance to do the next (t1) and then the next etc etc etc. They could keep doing this all the way through T2. When T2 is ready you put in a weekly to clear a random boss in T1 QF so people do that on their way to farm T2. You dont need a whole new zone, just one boss staggered out every 4 to 6 weeks. The same could have been done with TD ( a LFR boss then another then roll out T1 bosses staggered over the time we waited). The rotating quest would have worked well too. A new raid could have been slotted for early fall, followed by add on bosses. If they didnt want to redo a 20 man, why not take old 20 man bosses and stagger them out like in BoB for people who want it. Make it a 20 man weekly quest.

    The possibilities are limitless, but yet they just give us less and less and less.
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  10. #10
    Rift Disciple Gharn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dundare View Post
    Yet, why is no one held accountable for this?
    Players are held accountable. It's really that simple.

    MMOs lost A LOT of interest across the board ever since MOBAs arrived and especially E-sport upped it's rank. Just have a quick look around and you'll easily notice that the general MMO population is much lower than usual.

    Now place that population in your hands and notice how many diehard raiders are to be found here. The biggest population is casual, meaning you don't have to sacrifice 4-6 evenings a week JUST in order to "progress".

    Last, but not least, it's been mentioned a fair bit of times that the Rift team is smaller than at launch, and that obviously mean it's harder for them to push out same amount of content. You can't just pick them all up, put them into the same room and say "Make us a new raid instance!".
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gharn View Post
    Players are held accountable. It's really that simple.

    MMOs lost A LOT of interest across the board ever since MOBAs arrived and especially E-sport upped it's rank. Just have a quick look around and you'll easily notice that the general MMO population is much lower than usual.

    Now place that population in your hands and notice how many diehard raiders are to be found here. The biggest population is casual, meaning you don't have to sacrifice 4-6 evenings a week JUST in order to "progress".

    Last, but not least, it's been mentioned a fair bit of times that the Rift team is smaller than at launch, and that obviously mean it's harder for them to push out same amount of content. You can't just pick them all up, put them into the same room and say "Make us a new raid instance!".
    Rift raiders didn't quit because of MOBAs they quit because of things like fragments and IRCs and the lack of challenging content to do. Perhaps over the years Rift lost a certain amount of players to MOBAs just like any MMO did, but this has nothing to do with SFP. Besides that, the need to rush the xpac (which lead to only releasing part of the content that was announced) and - again - broken promises is what also caused people to leave.

    Casual population has always been the majority, but this xpac was the first one with the least amount of challenge for non-casuals. Both competitive, challenging raiding and PVP are non-existent at this point. And it's not like this is the first time when there's more casuals than raiders, this has always been the case.

    Last but not least, do people just magically disappear from a development team for no reason? Or, maybe, the game not paying off the way it used to has something to do with it? Like, you know, because of some unpopular decisions that caused many people to either quit playing or quit paying? That's not to mention that Rift's players are apparently also indirectly paying for certain failed projects instead of only paying for Rift's development (I'm not making this up btw it was confirmed in one of the earlier threads as a "model that works" - apparently, for any other game besides Rift). Rift's team is smaller than it used to be - yes, but it's not a coincidence or bad luck.
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  12.   This is the last Rift Team post in this thread.   #12
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    Hi all,

    First off, let me start out by saying I understand your concerns. I've personally been a pretty big raider in MMOs and I find it to be both challenging and exhilarating. It's certainly one of the most exciting parts about end-game content.

    Now, in regards to the long list of raids that RIFT has released over the years, yes, it's absolutely true that times have changed. AAA MMORPGs are expensive (not just from a monetary perspective, but also in time and resources) and in its heyday, the game had much more freedom to go and do whatever. It was also a different monetary model and released during a time when MMOs were still the hot new thing.

    As times have changed, Trion has changed along with them. We went free-to-play, added a cash shop, and refocused our efforts on what our team knew to be successes. Additionally, instead of doing super mega huge content updates in the forms of expansions, we have expansions along with regular content updates.

    In this process of change, one of the big things that was changed for raiding is eliminating 20-man raids. These were incredibly complex to manage, required tons of resources, and ultimately we didn't see the play-through as high as the 10-man versions. Therefore we re-focused to what was proven to work, and for us, that was 10-mans.

    As far as a full time-line with everything coming up in the next two years, we sadly at this time, cannot provide you with that. I can tell you that the team has been very hard at work at planning a brand new raid for an upcoming content update (sorry, no dates yet). This will not be a re-vamped raid but rather something completely new. Obviously, we will share more details when we can although that is all that I can offer you right now.

    Please also keep in mind that we do meet quite regularly to discuss strategy and your input really does come into play. We're just not always able to act (or act immediately). My best suggestion for you is to keep being constructive with your feedback, give us actionable insights we can work off of that will make you happy, and keep this communication going with us. We won't always be able to do everything you want but we can at least discuss it.

    Thank you!
    Last edited by Yaviey; 08-10-2017 at 03:34 PM. Reason: grammar

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaviey View Post
    Hi all,


    In this process of change, one of the big things that was changed for raiding is eliminating 20-man raids. These were incredibly complex to manage, required tons of resources, and ultimately we didn't see the play-through as high as the 10-man versions. Therefore we re-focused to what was proven to work, and for us, that was 10-mans.


    Thank you!
    Thank you for the feedback.

    I do have two points/questions to make here.

    1) 20 man raids might still be viable if Trion had had a better strategy of nerfing content and making it accessible to everyone as time went on. Nerfs were done shortly and I mean really shortly before new content came out. Secondly, Trion has never had in Rift really linear boss progression. In instance after instance, there were "raid killer" and "guild killer" bosses from Johlen to Sicaron to Ungolok and on and on relatively early. The wings of HK were harder than all the upstairs except for Akylios. That to me was always on the Rift folks for not viewing raids comprehensively and drawing people into them. We would have never needed weak sauce like LFR if people had paid attention to this aspect of raid design, raid tweaking, and raid accessibility.

    2) Eliminating 20 mans would be more defensible if there has been a refocus to 10 man raiding. I still think you could have 20 mans if the above were taken into account. Be that as it may, if there was a refocus to 10 man raiding where are the raids? We got a 1 boss ez mode/less than expert difficulty in QF. That was followed with a "Tier 0.5" which was really a easier than expert version of a 10 man raid. Pretty much that exact same raid as it debuted on the PTS (I tested it) was nerfed for "Tier 0.5" then released as a Tier 1 months later. Then we get an Intrepid Rise of the Phoenix, which has not changed at all really. Now, a year after the raid we will get our first truly new at launch 10 man Tier 1 or 2 raid? It makes little sense if what you say is true. It seems like it would be better to say something like we decided to abandon 20 man raiding, drastically scale back our raid offerings in the new expac, and be really murky about what the future holds for raiding in Rift. The content drop is enormous. I paid for this expac. I pay for patron. I pay on the store. Nowhere did anyone say Rift was going to cut back its raiding by 75-90% as part of this expac, yet here we are...
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  14. #14
    Champion of Telara Holyroller12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dundare View Post
    1) 20 man raids might still be viable if Trion had had a better strategy of nerfing content and making it accessible to everyone as time went on. Nerfs were done shortly and I mean really shortly before new content came out. Secondly, Trion has never had in Rift really linear boss progression. In instance after instance, there were "raid killer" and "guild killer" bosses from Johlen to Sicaron to Ungolok and on and on relatively early. The wings of HK were harder than all the upstairs except for Akylios. That to me was always on the Rift folks for not viewing raids comprehensively and drawing people into them. We would have never needed weak sauce like LFR if people had paid attention to this aspect of raid design, raid tweaking, and raid accessibility.
    I think the biggest problem is that most of the people that were willing to test these raids back in the day and even now are "top end" guilds. Raids ended up being tuned around guilds with a min/max mentality in mind and this is where we hit the DPS walls in examples you gave above. You needed to know your class, rotations and be properly geared to get past these gates. That's generally still the case, but it's drawn back significantly since those days. The idea was to make it very challenging for those guilds for the first 6 months and then start nerfing it for everyone else, but those people are still the minority of players and designing raids around them is generally what drove a lot of people away.


    Quote Originally Posted by dundare View Post
    2) Eliminating 20 mans would be more defensible if there has been a refocus to 10 man raiding. I still think you could have 20 mans if the above were taken into account. Be that as it may, if there was a refocus to 10 man raiding where are the raids? We got a 1 boss ez mode/less than expert difficulty in QF. That was followed with a "Tier 0.5" which was really a easier than expert version of a 10 man raid. Pretty much that exact same raid as it debuted on the PTS (I tested it) was nerfed for "Tier 0.5" then released as a Tier 1 months later. Then we get an Intrepid Rise of the Phoenix, which has not changed at all really. Now, a year after the raid we will get our first truly new at launch 10 man Tier 1 or 2 raid? It makes little sense if what you say is true. It seems like it would be better to say something like we decided to abandon 20 man raiding, drastically scale back our raid offerings in the new expac, and be really murky about what the future holds for raiding in Rift. The content drop is enormous. I paid for this expac. I pay for patron. I pay on the store. Nowhere did anyone say Rift was going to cut back its raiding by 75-90% as part of this expac, yet here we are...
    I think a lot of this has to due with the fact that we're not getting anymore 20mans in the foreseeable future. Exclusively putting out 10man raids is something new for both them and us and it it's a bit of an experiment. Games like WoW have multiple difficulties and flex raiding. Those are all things that would be great to have in Rift, but we don't have the population and they don't have the resources comparatively that WoW has to support those kinds of things.

    I'm happy a new raid is coming and like many other people... recycled content is my biggest gripe. Sadly, it's likely that we'll see more of it in the future because it saves them money and gives them more time to work on other raids, but I hope that with 10 mans being that only raids that we'll see more new than old. The same goes for dungeons.
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  15. #15
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    Things that have affected the population have ranged.

    1. Value to the Player gets #1!! Peeps hate the feeling of lack thereof...
    2. Lack of content with SFP (no raids/antique PvP)
    3. Imbalance (Frags, gear etc.)
    4. Souls are mostly non-viable (you get a tank, 2 heals, 2 viable DPS)
    5. Balance between classes
    6. IRC's for zone content

    VALUE to the player was the largest NERF that has ever happened in Rift, sadly.
    It's like paying for a Cadillac and receiving a Hyundai on the way out...
    Players being told to go play something else by Trion employees hasn't helped.
    On the 20 man topic... We would love it but where is it?
    It was a blast doing the 10's and 20's not all that long ago.

    With the lack of active players, the revenue stream is impacted. What if anything is going to stem the loss of players? At what point is VALUE to the player going to return? Peeps do appreciate some form of return for their money and effort. We are NOT looking for participation trophies, we are looking for content on par with Vanilla and Storm Legion with less emphasis on RNG that is worse than a Las Vegas slot machine.

    Just think if we had the quality/quantity of content of Vanilla/SL... What would it be like to hear an announcement that new shards are opening with the next patch? I know, I know.. Dream on ya sap!

    After VALUE returns and a promotion campaign goes down, the population will indeed spike. And it's game on for the Trion Team to do SMART decisions to keep em riveted.

    Frankly, I really don't care to support a title that I don't play. I am more than willing to support what I intend to play. With that said, an underperforming title either has to step up to the plate or switch off the lights. Thanks, but no thanks. I'd rather all titles go S2P and support themselves than have to give up on resource that I am paying for the benefit of and not receiving.

    Rift has been a fantastic franchise, but is loosing too much of its base.

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